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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 7487
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Blackwell wrote: | | Some competent trumpet makers have tried - including Schilke - to introduce professional-level flugelhorns with straight slides without success. |
I can't believe that the first valve slide being horizontal on my 1525 affects the sound, nor that the 3rd being the acceptable vertical does either ... (Let's not even talk about the 4th) |
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nieuwguyski
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 1675
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Blackwell wrote: | | nieuwguyski wrote: | | ... If the bell ran along the left side of the valve casings there would be no reasonable way to play the horn one-handed, which those of us who play charts sometimes have to do. ... |
It isn't a stretch of the imagination (at least not mine) that a reasonable way would be to solder a pinky hook onto the valve block of a horn in such a configuration. This would easily allow the horn to be played one-handed.
Maybe I’m missing it, but have you ever played a piccolo trumpet one handed? :o |
I have played my Getzen Eterna picc one-handed (again, quick horn switch in a pit orchestra). It works because the leadpipe runs along the right side of the valves, creating a place to hook the right thumb -- under the leadpipe, between the first and second valve casings. A Schilke-style pinkie hook, soldered to the fourth valve, would come in very handy at moments like that, but I made do with hooking my pinkie around the fourth valve stem and concentrating on not applying too much lateral force.
In the case of a flugelhorn with the bell on the left side of the valves, there would be no place to put your thumb to help support the horn. Look at the picture of Mark Curry's flugel and imagine it without the faux leadpipe. Then mentally add a Schilke-picc-style pinkie hook and tell me how you'd play it one-handed. I suppose you could solder a thumb ring to the top of the first and second-valve slide tubing. That would involve less hardware than the Graham modification, but you'd lose the pencil holder.
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nieuwguyski
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 1675
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | nieuwguyski wrote: | | having no flesh wrapped around the bell. |
Does this really affect what is heard out front? (Seems to me like any difference might just be on the player side of the bell / near proximity?) |
Which is why I wrote "the debatable advantages of having no flesh wrapped around the bell."
Which I wrote in response to RR's statement: "If anything, the right hand is going to dampen-out some frequencies."
I don't obsess about stuff like that. Assuming it's even audible, the "sonic signature" of having the right hand touching the flugel bell is, at this point, a characteristic of the sound we and the audience expect to hear -- since the vast majority of flugels require it.
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nieuwguyski
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Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 1675
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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gchun
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:14 am Post subject: |
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How about the Benge flugel? Horizontal first slide, vertical third slide.
I assumed that the vertical slides became popular because companies just started copying a successful design. Look how many companies copy the Yamaha 631/731 layout. |
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Bill Blackwell
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 680
Location: Southern CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| nieuwguyski wrote: | | ... In the case of a flugelhorn with the bell on the left side of the valves, there would be no place to put your thumb to help support the horn. Look at the picture of Mark Curry's flugel and imagine it without the faux leadpipe. Then mentally add a Schilke-picc-style pinkie hook and tell me how you'd play it one-handed. ... |
In the same mental picture you've painted, imagine a flat horizontal thumb hook soldered just below the 1st valve top cap.
| nieuwguyski wrote: | | ... At some point you have to ask if "pro" flugelhorns have vertical slides simply because we, the buyers, expect it. |
You bring my point (that there is no apparent 'technical' reason not to have straight valve slides) home perfectly.
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"In jazz, there are no 'wrong' notes ...
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Robert Rowe
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 5187
Location: Talbot County, Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Yo. I saw something on eBay a little earlier today, that REALLY caught my attention:
An original very early Schilke fleugelhorn (#2 ?), listed at an eye-popping ten-grand !
Joe Marcinkiewcz is the owner, but the listing is by his son.
It HAS the bell on the left, as I was describing ... AND, a pinky-ring ... looking as though it is mounted on the 3rd-valve balluster (as I had alluded in earlier posts).
I don't have the link right now (I'm away from my home iMac, and am using the iPad).
Should be easy to find.
~ r2 ~
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nieuwguyski
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 1675
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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The Schilke flugel has a thumb-hook on the first valve casing.
So yes, there are work-arounds for the holding-the-horn issue I brought up. And yet none of these "bell on the left" flugel designs has succeeded. Maybe it's simply because, like vertical valve slides, flugel designs have to match the buyer's expectations to succeed.
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