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JRYMusic Regular Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2011 Posts: 28
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject: Kanstul Valves |
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I know there have been plenty of topics on this, but I have a Kanstul picc and I love everything about it.... except the valves. I was performing Scarlatti's "In Terra La Guerra" today, and the valves stuck (specifically the 2nd)... this has been happening for quite some time but never this bad. Does anyone have any advice for this problem. I oiled them, cleaned them, and have watched how I am pushing them down. I have the horn about a year and a half and I bought it used from Callet, so I don't know how old the horn is. Does anyone have an advice?
Thanks
JY _________________ Yamaha 9335VS
Bach Malone C
Scodwell Flugel
Schilke Eb/D |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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It's impossible to know from a text description what's going on. It could be dozens of things, but one thing I'm fairly sure of is that the problem isn't that Kanstul builds bad valve blocks.
In fact, they build valve blocks for a lot of other companies or smaller "boutique" builders. That wouldn't be happening if there was something intrinsically wrong with them.
The valves on my Kanstul 1525 are very, very good, and seem to only get better and better the more I play it.
Rather than starting a thread on here saying that the problem is Kanstul valves, you'd probably be much better off taking it to a really reputable brass tech and have them determine what's going on for you. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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JRYMusic Regular Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2011 Posts: 28
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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I understand that Kanstul make valve blocks for other companies. I think their products are wonderful. I am also in the process of finding a brass tech. Also, this is not a Kanstul bashing thread. I have had rotten luck with their valves in the past as well as now. Just my experience. I was wondering if anyone else ran into problems and how they had them fixed. As I said before, the picc is great, it's just that the valves stick. _________________ Yamaha 9335VS
Bach Malone C
Scodwell Flugel
Schilke Eb/D |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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My Kanstul picc has very tight and somewhat tempermental valves. Mine seems to do best with Blue Juice. And I seem to recall the Al Cass makes the valves stick and that T2 works but makes them relatively slow.
You might do well to consult Kanstul on what you might try or if they recommend sending it back the factory for inspection. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Geodude Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Chicago 'burbs
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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A potentially low cost solution is to try different oils. Some horns (and people) seem to do better with certain oils than others. It seems likely you will have pretty tight clearance valves so Hetman #1 or Yamaha Light might be good ones to try if you haven't tested them already. Clean it well before making the switch to minimize the chances of compatibility issues. If you've already experimented with oils, bite the bullet and have a good tech take a look. You've been frustrated by it for more than a year, there is no shame in taking it to an expert who you trust and letting them sort it out. They deal with these sorts of problems on a daily basis. Life is too short to use a horn that does not work the way you want. Good luck.
Barney |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7016 Location: AZ
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have owned three Kanstul-made horns and have borrowed others from the factory and also from Flip Oakes for product reviews. Their valves have generally been very good, but some have been temperamental in my hands.
For instance, both flugelhorn I've owned each had one sticky valve that took some 40-60 hours of use to break in to where I no longer had issues. One Celebration I tried gave me fits with all three valves, but none at all to Flip. My own WT trumpet has had perfect valves since day one. Most others have been terrific.
Is it the horn or your hand mechanics? Who knows? Send it in and have Zig take a look. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Lawler Bb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 1143 Location: Milwaukee, WI
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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I had Kanstul valves on my Lawler Bb trumpet (hence the name) a while back. They would stick with many kinds of oil (Al Cass was the worst), but moved like lightning with Blue Juice. Once I discovered Blue Juice that horn went from problematic at times to perfect every time. I never did try Hetman products and Yamaha Synthetic was years from invention when I owned the Lawler.
Some lucky person has that horn............what a player! #0182 _________________ Eric Sperry
www.ericsperry.com
www.facebook.com/EricSperryTrumpet/
www.instagram.com/milwaukeetrumpet/ |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have any issues with my kanstul picc with Al Cass.
I will repeat the advice in a couple of other posts. Pick up the phone and call Kanstul. |
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dmb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2002 Posts: 1305 Location: Anderson, IN
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Al Cass doesn't work well with my Kanstul. Swithched to Hetman, problem solved. _________________ Dan Burton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWuX9zPJWyY
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Olds |
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Bruin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2008 Posts: 1346 Location: L.A. area
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'm on my 2nd Kanstul trumpet, and neither was hindered by a break-in period, and both work[ed] beautifully from day one. Per others' Rx, have Kanstul work on your valves. Brian took his Benge 5x to Kanstul and it came by working like magic. _________________ '64 Conn Connstellation 38B
Jupiter 846S flugelhorn
CarolBrass Mini Pocket Trumpet
Schilke 17& 17D4d4 trumpet mpcs
Schilke 17F flugelhorn mpc |
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jblo Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Posts: 408 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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I can also attest that Kanstul valves are sensitive to the valve oil used. I had much success with Zaja Blue. My Kanstuls did not tolerate Ultra Pure or Al Cass.
I can also tell you that the Kanstul felts tend to shed fibers. 95% of the time when my valves were sticking, it's because a fiber shed off the felt and was slowing the valve down. The best thing I ever did to my Kanstul/Besson picc was have Reeves do a valve alignment which replaced the felts with his material that does not shed. Problems fixed.
I've had at least 10 different horns with Kanstul valves (still have one) and this has proven true across the board. _________________ Jason Blome
Bb - CarolBrass CTR-5205L-YLT-P
Cornet - CarolBrass CCR-6880-YLS-P
C - CarolBrass CTR-6262H-YSS-P-C
Flug - CarolBrass CFL-6200-RSS-L
Picc - CarolBrass CPC-7735F-YLS-P |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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My experience with Kanstul valves is that they are very tight, and require a lot of maintenance during break in. And of course, if you let the horn get dirty, the tight tolerance shows big time. Al Cass definitely does not work well. Blue Juice is the oil for Kanstul.
One trick Flip showed me is to buff the casing once in a while. Use the short cleaning rod, and wrap it in cheese cloth or a soft cotton big enough to fit the casing. Buff it good, clean off the valves and oil up.
Keep it clean! It's a precision instrument! _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3608 Location: New York
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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jblo wrote: | I can also attest that Kanstul valves are sensitive to the valve oil used. I had much success with Zaja Blue. My Kanstuls did not tolerate Ultra Pure or Al Cass.
I can also tell you that the Kanstul felts tend to shed fibers. 95% of the time when my valves were sticking, it's because a fiber shed off the felt and was slowing the valve down. The best thing I ever did to my Kanstul/Besson picc was have Reeves do a valve alignment which replaced the felts with his material that does not shed. Problems fixed.
I've had at least 10 different horns with Kanstul valves (still have one) and this has proven true across the board. |
in everyone's experience, is it true about the valve felts shedding, which could explain a lot of recurrent sticky valve issues, you clean it very well, within a couple days it is sticking again.
..chuck |
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plunkett Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2002 Posts: 564 Location: Wheeling, WV
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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This is really off the wall, but by any chance have you bumped the middle valve slide in the past? It may be binding the valve ever so slightly, but enough to affect the operation. I second the "see a tech" comment above.
Pat _________________ Pat Plunkett |
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JRYMusic Regular Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2011 Posts: 28
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all for your responses. I will take the horn to a repair guy and get other felts on the horn. If that doesn't work I'll call Kanstul and/or send it to Bob Reeves. Thank you all! _________________ Yamaha 9335VS
Bach Malone C
Scodwell Flugel
Schilke Eb/D |
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david mickley Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 May 2009 Posts: 712 Location: Indianapolis, In.
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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I would clean both the valves and valve casings with Iso. alcohol, this has helped me in the past with finicky valves. _________________ Chicago Benge 33XX
Burbank Benge 5X 59XX
Yamaha Flugel 231
assorted other horns |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Just to add something that hasn't been covered . . . these valves may just be very tight, which some folks would think was great. I have a number of vintage and newer horns, some rebuilt and some not . . . some of the rebuilt valves can get slow if they are not completely clean and lubed with the right oil. OTOH, some of the unrebuilt valves are a tad loose, but lightning fast.
I am less finicky than I used to be about this issue of valve leakage. It's great to have lightning fast valves that are reliable every day . . . and if this means that the valves have a very, very slight bit of leakage, maybe that's better than extremely tight valves that require constant maintenance.
Do have a tech or Kanstul look at your valves . . . they might just need a little bit of lapping. The lapping can be done a little at a time, until the valves are where you want them. They could end up being quite tight, but just loose enough to allow them to function perfectly all of the time . . . remember we could be talking about a tolerance of 0.0005" to 0.001". _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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My Kanstul 1525 and my Wild Thing work very well with BiNak Pro and don't require oil application with every usage -- maybe every third day.
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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pedaltonekid Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1711
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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I play a Kanstul 1525 flugel and love everything about it, including the valves.
On the other hand I have a callet jazz model (I am pretty sure Kanstul builds the base horn and that it uses a Kanstul valve block) and the second valve hangs up frequently. I will be watching the thread for a fix (hopefully). It is a great horn with great sound, great intonation and ease of playing - but the 2nd valve action is really annoying and noticeable to listeners. _________________ Best Regards, Play Well!! |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3663 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Kanstul Valves |
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[quote="JRYMusic"]I know there have been plenty of topics on this, but I have a Kanstul picc and I love everything about it.... except the valves. I was performing Scarlatti's "In Terra La Guerra" today, and the valves stuck (specifically the 2nd)... this has been happening for quite some time but never this bad. Does anyone have any advice for this problem. I oiled them, cleaned them, and have watched how I am pushing them down. I have the horn about a year and a half and I bought it used from Callet, so I don't know how old the horn is. Does anyone have an advice?
Thanks
"On Earth, The War" is apparently your struggle with the valves! I concur with the general opinion on Al Cass - do not use it, it's too thin to qualify as an oil.
Trying a heavier oil is good, but, as others have said, the valves may need lapping before you break them in to your fingering pattern.
Kanstul valves are good, but they wear as any other, and you may need lapping at the very least, in order to find an oil that'll work well. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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