Smaller- vs larger-bore Flugel

[Secco]

I've had the same Courtois flugelhorn for nearly 30 years, but I've never looked at, or even thought about horn specs very much. Recently I became aware that the Courtois, and some other French-made flugs have a bore smaller than most trumpets. My Courtois is apparently .415. I've always loved the sound I get from this horn in the mid and low registers, but I've always noticed that anything much above an E on top of the staff starts to feel stuffy, and starts to sound thin and flat in intonation (I think of this as the "Chuck Mangione Syndrome"). Is this likely to be a consequence of the small bore, or is it a Courtois thing, and would a larger-bore flugelhorn be more noticeably free-blowing with bigger sound in the upper range? I don't think it's me, because this doesn't happen with my trumpet playing. My mpc is a Reeves 42F. Thanks for your thoughts and ideas.
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Kanstul 1600/Curry 3BC. and 3TF, Stomvi Flex
Kanstul Pocket
WT Flugel, Copper / FO#3 std

[delano]

The .415 bore is very OK for flugels, it's the classic bore of the Cuesnon Monopole.
The problems in the high register is a typical Courtois thing.

[connicalman]

So much of the blow depends on the mouthpiece and lead tube. IMO the top-staff notes sound more steady on the small-bore models when using a deep large-bore mouthpiece. Could be me. Seems the same right up to top-line G, then there's a serious wall, out of all proportion with trumpet or cornet demands, one that requires strong corners and a relaxed kisser.
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kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστε��ισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A...

[ChopsGone]

[crzytptman]

Next time you are in SoCal, take it to Flip Oakes for a valve alignment. Then pick out one of his Flugel mouthpieces. Nobody makes anything like his Extreme Flugel mpc.
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Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

[maynard-46]

[royjohn]

I have three small bore flugels and don't find that any of them are stuffy in the upper register after they are set up right, but I don't know about Courtois. It's a little smaller sound than something like a Getzen four valve, but I wouldn't call it stuffy.

Before I would pin this on the maker, there are several things I would check . . .cleaning, of course . . . then valve alignment, mouthpiece [taper] fit and choice. If none of that helps, I would try an aftermarket leadpipe, such as a Pilczuk. With a little inspection, and possibly $120 for a new pipe, you might find that you had a very good playing horn. The custom leadpipe makers will let you try out pipes and return them if they don't work, so why not try it, if needed?
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[maynard-46]

[royjohn]

Butch,

Not all my horns are listed in my signature. Sorry for any confusion. I measure all my horns with calipers, so I know the Getzen is about the largest bore flugel. I would think that the context of my post would indicate that, but maybe not to you.

The Olds in my sig is about 0.430" if I remember right. The small bore horns are about 0.410" to 0.415" . . . they are two French, Belgian or Dutch horns that are similar to the Couesnon in design and an Elkhardt, which is a Couesnon stencil.

Hope that clears it up. The Elkhardt plays fine and the other two play fine since their valves have been lined up. I don't fine 'em stuffy.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[delano]

[maynard-46]

[laurent]

Just a precision: when comparing the bore sizes between a trumpet and a flugel, don't forget that the measurement is taken at the second valve slide in both cases, which means at the half of the horn (about 60-70cms from the entry of the leadpipe) in the case of the trumpet, but at only 15 or 20cms approx. of the entry of the leadpipe in the case of the flugel.

I think that it would be much more significative to know the bore size of a flugel at the half of the horn as well, but it's probably impossible!
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Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD.

[Robert Rowe]

[James B. Quick]

I love my Mario Corso Flugelhorn, It's bore is .475....

jbq

[qcm]

I personally don't like to play a flugel above a Bb above the staff. I don't know how to describe it, but it just seems unnatural, to me at least, to play anything above that.

I play on a large bore, .460 bore, LA Benge 3FL flugel.

-Dave
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Dave Edwards

Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc.

[irith]

I haven't spent tons of time on the flugel but I have always preferred the smaller bores when playing it. I think it helps get the right sound and approach when you can back off a bit. The larger bores, to me, encourage more of a trumpet-y sound and approach. Might just be mental but that's what I've experienced.
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Bach, Schilke, Pickett mostly

[Flugelnut]

As far as easy high-register playing is concerned I don't feel much difference between my 1982 Benge 5FL (large bore, very wide bell throat) and my (probably 1960's) French Besson.
Like Dave I don't like playing much over the staff on flugel anyway, IMO almost all of the characteristic sound is lost there.
At the high C level I find it hard to distinguish flugel from cornet from trumpet.
I wouldn't blame the horn, and I'm not a Courtois fan by any means.

[Tony Scodwell]

A free blowing flugel in the high register? Looking at two really great players who did indeed play in the upper register on their flugels [Freddie Hubbard and Chuck Mangione], their choice of equipment might be a clue. Freddie played a .460 Getzen and could make you weep with his delicate low register playing as well as excite the hell out of you upstairs. His mouthpiece choice I don't know, but from the lower register playing he did so well I would guess it wasn't too small. Chuck Mangione loved playing above the staff with the music he wrote and I believe he favored a shallow mouthpiece. Both guys did quite well, and to generalize about various horns and upper registers getting stuffy in the upper register seems to be a bit misleading. As always, balance is the key with both trumpet and flugelhorns and mouthpiece/horn combinations should be determined by each player, perhaps with another set of ears helping out. The flugelhorn players I have admired through the years have been mostly playing the smaller bore french style horns such as Bessons and Courtois. Art Farmer to me epitomized how a flugel should be approached, and Clark Terry made the instrument an extension of his own voice. Playing the flugel is quite different from the trumpet and it's my belief that it should be approached with that in mind.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or now in Europe at Musik-Bertram, Freiburg, Germany.

[tommy t.]

[qcm]