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Kanstul Valves


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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Kanstul Valves Reply with quote

[quote="JRYMusic"]I know there have been plenty of topics on this, but I have a Kanstul picc and I love everything about it.... except the valves. I was performing Scarlatti's "In Terra La Guerra" today, and the valves stuck (specifically the 2nd)... this has been happening for quite some time but never this bad. Does anyone have any advice for this problem. I oiled them, cleaned them, and have watched how I am pushing them down. I have the horn about a year and a half and I bought it used from Callet, so I don't know how old the horn is. Does anyone have an advice?

Thanks

"On Earth, The War" is apparently your struggle with the valves! I concur with the general opinion on Al Cass - do not use it, it's too thin to qualify as an oil.
Trying a heavier oil is good, but, as others have said, the valves may need lapping before you break them in to your fingering pattern.

Kanstul valves are good, but they wear as any other, and you may need lapping at the very least, in order to find an oil that'll work well.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you by any chance mistakenly swapped two valves?
After that, they may stick for a while.

Use a chamois cloth to wipe off pistons and casings, and
clean the small tubes between the valves. In a picc, the
second valve tubing crook is VERY difficult to clean. You
may want to use an odd-shaped brush and be careful not
to scratch the casings.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I had this issue with my Smith Watkins cornet when it was new, which is built by Kanstul and has Kanstul valves.

The second valve drove me mad.

Each time I played it, the second valve started sticking as soon as the cornet warmed up and started accumulating water, which made me think that it must be either an affect of water mixing with the oil, altering its viscosity, or more likely, manufacturing residule in the tubes between the valves, moving into the casing when the horn started getting water in it.

It must have been the second, as a good clean, including the tubes between the valves, has largely solved this issue. This valve will still stick at bit when it needs oiling, whereas the valves merely slow on my other instruments, but a drop or so of oil and it is fine.

I find this cornet to be very particular regarding value oil. My favourite Yamaha Synthetic light is far too heavy for this cornet. I'm currently using the supplied Alisyn oil. I also oil it very sparingly, as too much leads to slowing of the valves.

I can fully understand why Blue Juice will work well on Kanstul valves, but I personally am hyper-sensitive to it. It gives me an extremely dry mouth, to the point that it is difficult to play, and a very sore throat. I believe that it might be owing it having a high evaporation rate.

All the best

Lou
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mrsemman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had several Kanstul built horns, including the Wild Thing. On most of them, I have had a similar problem. I discovered that it might be moisture seeping or mixing with the valve oil on the second piston. I also found that when the second piston started to stick, that if I removed the second valve slide and blew out the moisture, that everything would go back to normal.

Hope this helps.

Gary
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MattC
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Kanstul Valves Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:


"On Earth, The War" is apparently your struggle with the valves! I concur with the general opinion on Al Cass - do not use it, it's too thin to qualify as an oil.
Trying a heavier oil is good, but, as others have said, the valves may need lapping before you break them in to your fingering pattern.

Kanstul valves are good, but they wear as any other, and you may need lapping at the very least, in order to find an oil that'll work well.


Just to point out--I recently had yourbrass work on the 2nd valve on a Bach I own. It was driving me to shelve the horn. Valves were lapped, new oil used and I haven't had a problem since.

I now have 3 partially used bottles of Al Cass waiting to be donated to someone. I bring them to rehearsals hoping to see someone using it so I can rid myself of it.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heavier oil is where we may be going. I haven't really studied the tolerances of Kanstul pistons, but I'm going to SoCal in a couple of weeks and hope to see the factory and all the stuff they're doing there.

I think Al Cass and other thin oils that don't provide an emulsive layer between piston and casing are a main cause of valve hangup and wear. Forgetting to oil daily as you play is another main cause of wear.

Think of your car's engine: Would you put the thinnest oil available in the crankcase and go racing around?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Heavier oil is where we may be going. I haven't really studied the tolerances of Kanstul pistons, but I'm going to SoCal in a couple of weeks and hope to see the factory and all the stuff they're doing there.

I think Al Cass and other thin oils that don't provide an emulsive layer between piston and casing are a main cause of valve hangup and wear. Forgetting to oil daily as you play is another main cause of wear.

Think of your car's engine: Would you put the thinnest oil available in the crankcase and go racing around?


If you can spare a couple extra hours down in SoCal, drive down to Oceanside to visit Flip. See if he will sell you some of his valve oil. I have used it since I met him in June 2009. Don't want to use anything else. It is a daily oil, but the action is fast and reliable with no smell and no build-up. Similar to Blue Juice, but a tad thinner and never gummy. Faster, too.

Try some horns while you're there. Bring money...

Brian
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,
Thanks. I probably won't get further down south, and I have an old Benge and a Calicchio I hardly practice enough on as it is!
Another trip, perhaps.
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Locutus2k
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played and owned (still own) many Kanstul or made by Kanstul trumpets. Never had a problem with valves. Only issue, on a particular horn, on the "compression test" there was an audible leaking of air (and the trumpet was brand new) but the horn plays flawlessy the same. Other than that only positive experience.
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do your valves have greenish brown splotches on them? That is a sign that they are gauling (sp?) Picking up brass from the casing. When this happens they tend to stick. It especially happens with Al Cass oil since they changed the formula. If they have the splotches, take a wash rag and get it wet and put Lava soap on it. Scrub the splotches off the valve. They will work fine after that. It won't damage the valves. The amount of material removed in this way is negligible.
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The valves on my Kanstul cornet that I bought in '95 are the best I've experienced. This horn has been through a lot too and they're still amazing. On my Kanstul pocket trumpet the vavles started acting up after about 7 years. I tried swithcing oils and eventually went to kanstul himself and had the vavles rebuilt. It was 300 dollars but the horn plays like new again.
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JRYMusic
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those who are interested/care... I took the horn to a highly recommended brass tech. He said that he cleaned it, aligned the valves, and oiled it. I play tested it, and the darn valves still stuck.... He asked if I was the original owner, and I'm not, because there could be a chance the valve or casing is bent. He said he is going to look at it and try a few things, and if nothing works I will have to have the horn shipped off to get the valves refitted.... just my luck... anywho, the valve alignment did wonders for the feel of the horn as well as intonation.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been several threads on horns whose second valve hangs because the horn has been dropped on the second valve slide, slightly deforming the casing. In some cases, pushing the valve slide back the other way while working the valve or something similar fixes the problem. Another possible fix would be a very slight burnishing of the casing to put it back in round without enlarging it . . . a delicate but sometimes possible fix.

If these fixes don't work, rebuilding only the single valve, if the others are OK, would only cost about $100 - $125.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsemman wrote:
I have had several Kanstul built horns, including the Wild Thing. On most of them, I have had a similar problem. I discovered that it might be moisture seeping or mixing with the valve oil on the second piston. I also found that when the second piston started to stick, that if I removed the second valve slide and blew out the moisture, that everything would go back to normal.

Hope this helps.

Gary


Hi Gary

I'm very glad that I am not the only one who has had this issue with the second valve, and like you say, it doesn appear to be be moisture related.

Take Care

Lou
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trumpeter27
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since when is Al Cass considered a "thin" oil? Al Cass is like glue on my Yamaha horns, whereas it worked great when I had a Bach. Blue Juice worked well but evaporated too quickly so I had to oil the valves every day. Hetmans Light was the answer for me.

Even "thin" oils provide an "emulsive layer", the issue is how fast that breaks down and what causes it to break down. The chemistry or viscosity of the oil is one factor, but so is the chemistry of the player's saliva and it's interaction with the oil. Also the tolerance or "tightness" of the valves in the casing is a big factor. Tight tolerance = thinner oil needed.

As a mechanical engineer, I can tell you that your comparison to a car engine isn't a fair one. Car engine cylinders go through thousands of cycles per second, and at very high temperature. Unless you're a very busy professional player or practicing hours a day, you're not likely to even reach one thousand cycles on your valves for days.

yourbrass wrote:
Heavier oil is where we may be going. I haven't really studied the tolerances of Kanstul pistons, but I'm going to SoCal in a couple of weeks and hope to see the factory and all the stuff they're doing there.

I think Al Cass and other thin oils that don't provide an emulsive layer between piston and casing are a main cause of valve hangup and wear. Forgetting to oil daily as you play is another main cause of wear.

Think of your car's engine: Would you put the thinnest oil available in the crankcase and go racing around?

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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an interesting article on valve oil. It lists the viscosities of some brands, including Al Cass.

http://www.trumpetguild.org/journal/s95/9509Holl.pdf
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really interesting article. So, if I'm reading the chart on pg. 72 correctly, Al Cass evaporates faster than most of the oils tested despite the earlier table which lists its viscosity as being consistent with other oils.

Maybe that's the problem - most people don't re-oil often enough. If you're playing a lot, I could see having to oil twice in a day w/Al Cass. I don't know why anyone would want to work that hard, but to each his own.

BTW, had yet another new customer come in with sticky valves, same valve oil as usual, AC.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think valve oil has as much to do with the individual using it as the viscosity or formulation, and here's why...

For every brand you can imagine, I've heard players say "that oil sucks", and other players say "that's the best valve oil I've ever used". Every brand has advocates and despisers. I think our own unique body chemistry interacts with the oils, and cause some to work for us, that fail for others, and vice versa.

This isn't something you can decide by a poll, or reading a tech report on valve oils. You have to try them for yourself, and find out what works for you personally.
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