"A" above the stave

_Clarino · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:56 am Post subject:

I have a very hard time playing this note on my flugel horn. Does anyone else have this problem/know the reason?
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tromba mann · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:04 pm Post subject:

I am playing the solo in Grainger's "Colonial Song" and I noticed too that the A above the stave/staff is not where I expect it to be (in terms of slotting). I haven't played the Flugel in ten years so it's been a bit of an adjustment.

This might be a break note on the instrument, sort of like D or E on a Bb. I'm playing a section-mate's older Yamaha and it does not have a first or third slide, so I have to lip up to slot the note.

trumpetmike · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:05 am Post subject:

A very familiar sounding problem this one,
I have found that when I start heading above the stave on a flugel (which is almost never due to the intonation problems already alluded to!) I discover alternative fingerings are the way forward.
On my last flugel I found that my A was best in tune using just 2nd valve. Unorthodox, but it seemed to work.
On my current flugel (Getzen 4 valve) the A is fairly steady, but I still don't enjoy taking a flugel above the stave. It is definitely not their home territory.

horndevil · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:22 am Post subject:

I find myself agreeing with Trumpetmike again. On my old Besson Sovreign Flugel, I had to use 2nd valve to find the A at all. The Bach Strad needs 3rd and on many cornets it is better played on 3rd valve. Luckily, my Conn V1 Flugel slots well using 1&2 or 3, giving more options. It is also comfortable up to G above high C, although Flugel parts are rarely written above the staff and I have never seen anything written above D.
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Martin J. Rooney · Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:57 am Post subject:

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Martin J. Rooney · Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:58 am Post subject:

I have had this same issue as well. Changing to the GR mpc. helped, but I still tend to overshoot this note. B,C, D are fine, which I find odd. Nice to hear I am not alone.
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Eclipse MR (gold plate)(GR65MX)
Smith Watkins C (gold plate) (464R20/H250 - GR65MX)
Kanstul CCT 920 Picc (GR62P-M)
Courtois 154G Flugel (GR65 FL)

_dcstep · Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 8:06 am Post subject:

Hate to pile on, BUT I too experienced much better intonation and resonance in my flugel when I got my GR66FL. I play a couple of pieces in unison with the alto and tenor in my rock band and both go up to A. We get a great blend and the intonation is spot on. The two horns sound like one horn of another sort.

That said, I think that most of us would benefit from using more alternative fingerings. I saw this graphically illustrated at a fund raising recital put on last Sunday by Dr. Iskander Akmundullin up at UNT. Wow! He made sure that each and every note resonated freely. In more than a few places he did things like use the 3d valve for A (combined with adjustment of the 3d slide) and 1-2-3 on an F# on top of the staff (also combined with slide compensation). If it was a long note, he made certain that the horn was absolutely on pitch center and the horn resonated freely. BTW, he was playing Bach Elkhart Bb and C horns, with Curry caps of various weights on the cylinder bottoms. He seemed to play with no stress at all. Incredible!

Dave
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mcamilleri · Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 6:29 pm Post subject:

My Jupiter flugel (copy of the Yamaha 731) is fine on the A and higher with my Curry or Getzen mouthpieces. Plays with good intonation as high as I can play, with no noticeable 'break' point. It is another story with the stock Jupiter flugel mouthpiece, which plays flatter the higher you go, till I am about 1/2 a semitone flat on high G.

If your mouthpiece does not match the horn, you will either play flat or sharp up high, though it won't normally give you a 'break' point, just progressively worse intonation. Changing the mouthpiece can fix this, though you have to try the piece in person to get the right one.

It is possible that playing A on 1-2 puts a pressure anti-node (point of maximum vibration) at a place in the tubing where it is rough or stepped (e.g. in the middle of a valve, or over a water key), or not well braced. If this is so, a lot of energy is lost, and the tone and intonation may suffer. Alternate fingerings may avoid this point if it is past the valve casing, or if you play a different harmonic (eg A on valve 2). You may be able to identify such a point by running your finger along the horn tubing when you play the A loudly, and feeling for a point which vibrates a lot. Can't really be fixed without plumbing work, though if it is the valve casing, heavy caps or buttons MIGHT help.

Part of the reason that Flugelhorns can sound thin above G is the way they are designed. The large, flared bell does not reflect higher frequencies back into the horn to support resonance as well as say a trumpet or cornet. Another reason is that the pitch at ~800Hz is getting to be above the formant frequency of the horn, which is the freqency that characterises the sound of the flugelhorn. Go above this pitch, and it doesn't quite sound like a flugel any more. (The formants are at around 1300 and 2500 Hz for trumpet, and lower for lower brass). Another reason, is that since it is difficult to play high on a really deep cup mouthpiece, at some point the player has to make embouchure adjustments (roll in, more mouthpiece pressure, whatever) which can thin out the tone.

Three good reasons to keep most of your flugel playing in or below the staff. I just LOVE pumping out a big, fat low F# when playing blues in concert E.

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

Get a Conn Vintage One or a Shew Yamaha.

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pfrank · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:51 am Post subject:

After months of not playing it due to using cornets, I reciently tried to play my '70 Couesnon with it's french shank Wick 4F and it was Very hard to go above the staff... remembering years back when I was a sprat when I didn't know about the existance of different flug shanks, and used a Bach 3C all the time on it, and had more range on the flug than on trumpet... So I tried a Warburton 4D on a Kanstul 112 (Bach taper) shank...and WOW! There was the easy high range again. Double E, almost double G now available... And ease of articulation. Great tone. The French shank mps "fit" "perfectly" and the Bach shank doesn't go in as far. Using the Bach shank with a Warb 4D resurected my flugalhorn. Could it be that the Couisnon was built for a Bach taper? It says "Made in France" on the bell...

_Don Herman · Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:14 am Post subject:

Sorry to bring this old one to the top, but I played my flugelhorn (MYF, Mellow Yellow Flugel, my Wild Thing version) quite a bit yesterday -- ballads, prayer response, offertory. No break at the A above the staff on it that I could tell. Just fooling around, I found I could play the G over high C easier than on my trumpet, though without much volume to it (she doesn't really like to play up there). Mpc is a FO 3 (deeep, deep V, 13 throat).

I have noticed this break seems to be there on some other horns, not just flugelhorns, fwiw. It's also a "mental" break for a lot of us, as some beginner music books stop at G, making the A "seem" a high note. - Don
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