"new" water key design?

[veery715]

I also hope it goes well, and apologize for my "evil" thoughts.
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veery715

Music is what feelings sound like.

[Brassworks]

I talked to a couple guys that said they had the same idea also after they saw my design, but I came up with the idea out of pure frustration. Having a creative bent as I do, I just kept working to make it practical.

The patent search my attorney did all turned out well, so I am not worried too much about someone patenting the idea before me.

Thanks for your comments!

Jerry Pollard
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Jerry Pollard
"Artistic endeavors are the building blocks of a great society"

[LittleRusty]

Patents are a good thing. Checking for prior patents and art, also good.

But the patent office has a real problem on its hands. I listened to an NPR segment and they found a patent for backing up a computer into the cloud that was granted in something like 1980. Since then there have been over 100 other patents for the same idea, some with nearly identical wording.

What appears to be happening is that the patent office is leaving it up to lawsuits and judges to sort it out in some cases.

Not meaing to discourage you and your good idea. I just am annoyed at the patent office.

[RandyTX]

Yes, the patent office is way over its head, especially on technical issues and software patents. They have no clue what is novel or even useful when it comes to software. It's really a battle of "who has the biggest lawyer".

Mechanical patents are a lot more cut and dried.

[Brassworks]

I have a combined total of 9 patents, both utility and design under my belt, so this is not new to me.

I am confident that the patent will be granted. I had to defend one patent application, and I won that time.

This isn't just about a patent, I've really been looking for a better spit valve. This is it. I have another spit valve design nearly as innovative, but not as "cool" looking, but I'm not going to do anything with it.

Thanks for all the comments!

Jerry Pollard
_________________
Jerry Pollard
"Artistic endeavors are the building blocks of a great society"

[QuokkaTribe]

Y'all are whiny. Amen to folks at pollard and brassworks, i admire your stance and words.

best wishes

[Brassworks]

[Honmoru]

[Maarten van Weverwijk]

[/quote]How much this entire system costs you?...(Amado)[/quote]

Votaw Tools.
Amados with screw cap.
Raw brass: $6.30
Silver plated: $11.35

I've installed dozens and never had any complaints about their functioning whatsoever.
If you don't maintain it properly any part of any instrument (valves, slides, valve caps, water keys...) will eventually stop working well. That's all there's to it, really.

Not meaning to undercut Jerry's invention, which looks really nice.

[acritzer]

I think it's a great idea. The price point and business model will work out over time.
Good luck.

[Brassworks]

I can understand why many would want to pay the equivalent of two bottles of valve oil for an Amado water key, the Pollard Water Key costs the equivalent of 8 bottles of valve oil at list price, which is not the selling price anyway.Those are the folks that don't have a clue. There is no comparison here, except both are push button operation. If you don't get it, that's ok. My product doesn't stick, EVER!

Quality vs. Cheapo....

Those that want a cheap product, like an Amado, are free to buy it, those of more discernment will look around and find something better. Don't trash a Rolls-Royce for being world class. Those that say the Amado doesn't give problems, good for you. I have yet to have one that hasn't stuck.

It is a small mind that equates the Pollard Water Key with an Amado. either they haven't really looked at the difference, or they are simply contrarian. How about really LOOKING at the differences before commenting? They are not the same in any respect.

The value-added to a horn is real with the Pollard Water Key, the Amado is just another spit valve. Look at Saturn, and the cost there, also, just look at a Bach Strad REPLACEMENT key! Even the Saturn is superior to the Amado, but no comments are made about the Saturn's cost, which is similar to the Pollard Water Key, and yet we use no plastic!

Why would I buy a Blackburn or Monette instead of a beginner horn? And pay LOTS more? Because I feel they are better tools, so the Pollard Water Key is the same, it is a better tool, and costs more. It is made in the USA, your Amado is made in China, more than likely.

My customers are looking for something better, but there is no crime in settling for cheapo.

As with a railway crossing. Look both ways before you comment.

I appreciate all the input, even that which is way off base!
_________________
Jerry Pollard
"Artistic endeavors are the building blocks of a great society"

[Tony Scodwell]

Jerry, don't get all pent up with comparisons to the original Amado waterkey. You only need to remember that Ray Amado designed his new waterkey in 1968 [I have his patent paperwork in my shop that he sent me] to eliminate the problems with the lever type keys in use for many years. Rays primary purpose was acoustic with the elimination of the disturbance caused by the large hole covered by a soft material. His stainless piston filled that void and the air didn't have to bounce off a void filled with cork or rubber. The secondary purpose was to eliminate the hairpin type spring which was always under tension and prone to breaking. He was super careful with tolerances with his suppliers and always made sure the players were informed about routine cleaning. For sure they will stick if not cleaned and lubed on a regular basis as will valves. Your design should be an improvement in the same direction and I certainly wish you well with your venture but Ray Amado does deserve much credit for his forward thinking many years ago. One other point for your information. The original design was quite elegant and had an end cap that was threaded and a nipple that was silver soldered on both of which were not cost effective to mass produce at the time. A few years later [about 1988] Ray introduced the "Pro" model Amado waterkey with a gold or silver colored end cap of special plastic which literally snapped on and off for cleaning. You may notice the same design on the current Monette trumpets and were used for the Signature 2000 line of DEG instruments that were made in the late eighties and early nineties. All other makers stayed with the circlip and end plate design still in wide use today. Ray's son Bill continues the production of the original waterkey today which were his father's wishes. As opposed to the Taiwan made version [which I utilize on my Scodwell USA trumpets] the Amado keys are proudly made in the
USA. Feel free to PM me if I can forward Ray's patent paperwork if you would like to see it and I can tell you his involvement with the design of the original Jet-Tone mouthpieces which were also quite an advancement on then current designs. Music and trumpet playing were Ray's love and his quest for a "better mousetrap" complimented his main business of running Amado Lab, a medical diagnosis concern.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or now in Sydney, Australia at Sax and Woodwind...and Brass.

[Brassworks]

Thanks Tony Scodwell for your comments. I have not taken the opportunity to recognize well enough the reasoning and design behind the Amado key. It was a vast improvement, and the fact that so many are being used today is a testament to that fact. The technical reasons regarding the acoustical improvements have been all but lost on most consumers.

I don't mean to put down the Amado Key, it's just that the Pollard Water Key is a different design, and with different static design principles. It seems that folks who have not really looked at it are being overly critical, and although those same folks might accept the idea of a 10,000.00 trumpet, they aren't even willing to think that a spit valve that never sticks, made in the US, and made with great precision and individually pressure tested, might be worth more that another water key. I accept critique, I reject nonsense.

Let me just say that I believe that my design is not just an improvement on the Amado; it is a different design. The problems I have had have been echoed to me over and over by many players all over the country, so it is not a problem I dreamed up.

I state over and over, if the Amado key works for you, great. If you want to look around, there are others.

The Amado will continue to be very successful, as it should be. I'm trying to contribute real products which exceed expectations to the brass world, and many of the "drive-by" critics aren't contributing a thing except hot air, which could be used to greater effect in a practice room.

Tony, you are a pro, and I truly respect your input. Thanks.
_________________
Jerry Pollard
"Artistic endeavors are the building blocks of a great society"

[etc-etc]

Jerry,

Speaking about the acoustical effects of your waterkey installation - Amado keys sit very close to the inner tube bore. Classical keys are all over the board because the cork can be indented more or less deeply, however, usually there is a "chimney" or "pothole" where the key is soldered at.

Does your waterkey, when closed, sit flush with the inside bore of the leadpipe? Or, is there a marginal "pothole" on the inner leadpipe surface just at the spot where the key would be brazed on the outer surface? How deep would that pothole go?

I guess, a borescope photo of an actual installation would be the best answer. Would you put one here on TH?

[Brassworks]

The valve sits almost flush, but it actually seats under tension from the spring, so any acoustical detriment is minimal, in fact, on 6 of my personal horns on which I have had the Pollard Water Key installed, the "slotting" seems to be improved, though bias and the placebo effect could be in play!

I'll be posting pics of the valve taken apart at some point. There is a "pocket" that allows the actual cone-shaped piston to be as close to the opening hole as geometry allows, and that is very closed indeed.

Thanks for the comments and questions!

Jerry
_________________
Jerry Pollard
"Artistic endeavors are the building blocks of a great society"