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Range Issue



 
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horntooter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Range Issue Reply with quote

I've been following along in the "Getting Started" thread (about 11 or 12 weeks) and also working out of Flexus (somewhat randomly based on what I feel is currently weakest). I do the 20 minutes on, 20 minutes off approach ... which is just great! I've always heard rest as much as you play and try to rest between exercises and such, but the 20 minutes limit really forces you to do it. Anyway...

I do my MCFB stuff first and it lasts less than 20 minutes ... 6 notes, 2nds, another interval, Harmonics, SLS, LSL, done. The issue is I consistently play my 2nds and whatever my daily interval is up to at least G above High C, often times even "Super C". My harmonics easily go to F above high C, every day. My SLS and LSL pretty much around F or G above High C.

So I'll finish that, take my 20 minutes off, then move on to some other routine like lip slurs out of Colin. Take #9, for instance, which just goes up to D above high C. I'll be unable to produce the D. Even if I try to play it the same way as the Caruso stuff (I know it says not to apply "the rules" to normal stuff, but just as an experiment), I still can't replicate my Caruso range in my normal every day range.

What is going on? Is Caruso wearing me down? Will the Caruso range slowly migrate over time into my normal playing? Am I doing something wrong? Am I doing something right? Who knows?
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Range Issue Reply with quote

horntooter wrote:
I've been following along in the "Getting Started" thread (about 11 or 12 weeks) and also working out of Flexus (somewhat randomly based on what I feel is currently weakest). I do the 20 minutes on, 20 minutes off approach ... which is just great! I've always heard rest as much as you play and try to rest between exercises and such, but the 20 minutes limit really forces you to do it. Anyway...

I do my MCFB stuff first and it lasts less than 20 minutes ... 6 notes, 2nds, another interval, Harmonics, SLS, LSL, done. The issue is I consistently play my 2nds and whatever my daily interval is up to at least G above High C, often times even "Super C". My harmonics easily go to F above high C, every day. My SLS and LSL pretty much around F or G above High C.

So I'll finish that, take my 20 minutes off, then move on to some other routine like lip slurs out of Colin. Take #9, for instance, which just goes up to D above high C. I'll be unable to produce the D. Even if I try to play it the same way as the Caruso stuff (I know it says not to apply "the rules" to normal stuff, but just as an experiment), I still can't replicate my Caruso range in my normal every day range.

What is going on? Is Caruso wearing me down? Will the Caruso range slowly migrate over time into my normal playing? Am I doing something wrong? Am I doing something right? Who knows?


Your Caruso range is not necessarily closely related to your normal playing range. Somedays Caruso will feel great and go great, somedays they will feel terrible but go great etc. The key is to do the exercises exactly as prescribed, concentrate on the timing, without any concern about how high you are getting or how good/bad it sounds/feels and things will eventually take care of themselves. Don't overdo them...sounds like you are doing a lot.
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Jerry said, you may get widely varying results for range and cutoff points in your daily practice of Caruso exercises. Pay this no attention. You are only doing calisthenics that will improve your other playing. An athlete would not pay any attention to how their warmup calisthenices looked or felt before a game. This is how you should approach the Caruso exercises.

Carmine would say, "where there's smoke, there's fire" and that higher notes require greater balance. It's great that you're reaching that range in your exercise practice. Each repetition provides you with more subconscious information of how to balance for those higher notes. Nevertheless, Caruso practice approaches those notes with controlled variables so results may not be the same as when you are playing music. Eventually, the Caruso exercise will lead you through most of the variables you encounter in music. Just keep at it and the balance will become familiar and will migrate to your normal playing.

It sounds like you're doing great but I, too, think you're doing too much for the limited time you've been working on the exercises.

Best of luck.

Alan
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its easy to get the idea that playing more exercises or more "advanced" exercises will get you there faster. Doesn't work that way. If you want to get more out the exercises double down on the rules; be stricter on the timing, if you are doing the soft loud soft or loud soft loud, push the loud as much as you can, to the very edge of control, same with the soft.

Charly Raymond who wrote all the sticky stuff at the beginning of this forum was asked about "advanced" Caruso exercises and he replied that he does them while counting in 32nd notes rather than 16th notes.
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horntooter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, honestly I'm surprised by these responses. I haven't tried to do anything advanced or advance through anything quickly. Frankly, I've been following the "Getting Started" thread more slowly than it suggests. I simply do the intervals until no sound comes out, then move on. I am shocked by how high that requires, but I'm not forcing anything. It's not a lot, maybe 10-15 minutes at most, then Caruso is done for the day.

Is it now recommended to not follow the "Getting Started" thread? Should I stop the intervals at a predetermined spot before no sound comes out? What should I be cutting if this is too much?
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deleted_user_02066fd
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I studied with Camine in the mid 70's and also with one of his prize students. His practice routine is very,very taxing. Not for the faint of heart and it helps to have good neighbors.
It takes a long time for your chops to adjust to the workload. Be a stickler about the timing issue, it's probably the single most important aspect of Caruso. Be patient and take a lesson from somone who is really familiar with the system if possible. Laurie Frink's name is often mentioned as one of the real authoroties on Carmine, she may do skype lessons if you live too far away.
I don't play too much these days but the best I have ever played were the years I did Caruso. I ran into my first Caruso teacher just a couple of nights ago and told him that. Funny thing is I have only spoken to him twice over the last 25 years. He said he still focuses on the timing issue during practice sessions.
Good luck.
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I went back to look at Charly's getting started thread. In my opinion and teaching, I believe more than one week is needed to adapt to each new set of exercises. Some of this comes from my personal assignments from Carmine and some comes from his discussion of mouthpiece changing. He said it took two weeks to evaluate a new mouthpiece. Initially one would play it with an established embouchure, then the chops would start to shift and adapt to the new 'piece. At seven days, the chops would be somewhat confused and just starting to move into a new balance which would start to settle down in about two weeks.

Projecting from this, I see each new Caruso exercise or regimen as a new exposure, requiring adaptation and rebalancing of the embouchure. I prefer students to wait two to four weeks before proceding to the next step. I think going faster will help the student progress but may cause some chop confusion along the way.

One of the wonderful things about Carmine's system is that it is no-fail if you follow the rules and be patient. Patience is the hard part. The exercises are very demanding. Take your time, tap your foot, and enjoy the ride.

Alan
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horntooter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pepperdean - This was great explanation! I have noticed a marked improvement on the weeks that I stuck to because I didn't feel ready to move on. The description really resonates with me as I have changed mouthpieces and experienced this exact thing in this exact way! I think this explanation will go a long way to help.

For everyone else, thanks for the reminder to keep subdividing more and more. I know I keep hearing it, but it's good to have people keep you honest.
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j.joyce
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You just have to keep with it. Work on it while your chops are still in good shape, probably in the middle of your practice session. Keep using a metronome, it will greatly improve your results.
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Shipham_Player
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

j.joyce wrote:
You just have to keep with it. Work on it while your chops are still in good shape, probably in the middle of your practice session. Keep using a metronome, it will greatly improve your results.


+1 to that. I'm still only doing the Basic Caruso - 6 steps, intervals etc nothing above high C and really had to back off face time and rest more.
I've been doing this for about 8 weeks and am not looking for more range yet just more endurance.

You don't realise how much of a workout it gives you're chops if you stick to the timing - I set my metronome to 50 and find I can do about 15 minutes of exercises and have to stop for at least 30 minutes - maybe my chops are weak but I can really feel it.

I did find though after a few weeks that I had a lot more endurance in gigs (big band 2nd jazz chair) and am finishing the night stronger than I started - so I think it does work but you have to go really slowly.
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

j.joyce, Carmine was opposed to using the metronome for his exercises. He wanted the student to tap the foot, with equal emphasis on the up-tap, in order to create a timing mechanism the body could feel and respond to.

Alan
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gstump
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was taught to think of Caruso Studies as medicine. After asking a question about an embouchure nuance, Mr. Caruso would say something like....."you don't have to think about how an aspirin knows where to go if you have a pain..." Translated to our times: Stop asking questions and take your medicine. Stick with it and follow the rules and good things will happen.

On a more controversial note: When I was in top form as a commercial lead player I could not get through a whole page etude to save my life. Except for the talented studio arranger/composer Dave Van De Pitte, trumpet parts had rests!

I do not know if it was just the way I played or my adapting to the short loud high bursts involved with commercial lead playing but my Caruso range never did translate to range in "normal" etudes, etc. I sucked at that anyway. My "forte" was forte!
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always used the medicine analogy. You're not at your best, you get a the doctor's advice and take the medicine as directed. No thinking.

Alan
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