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Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this industry


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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walter,

Copper bells come in two flavors: made from sheet stock (Kanstul) and electro-plated (Schilke, etc.). They behave differently. Kirk is talking mouthpipes. The Olds you mentioned is the balanced one, right? When I played Ed Mann's, it had the slightly numb sense I mentioned and it didn't seem to project as well as other Olds trumpets.

MikeyMike

My point to Kirk is that there are many, broad-ranging aspects of a business decision, even as simple as this one, But without experiencing the ramifications of one's decision making process and its impact on lives, one can get stuck harping on an unrealistic opinion.

Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The dates are off Wikipedia article not fact checked by myself but seem reasonable." Fact-checking is kinda important.

"The color of the brass can easily be controlled by what else you add to it besides tin." Yellow brass does not contain tin, gold brass and other shades are achieved by adding more copper. Bronze is a completely different alloy again.

Random words thrown at a page are like a lot of solos I've heard; one can play anything, but it may not mean anything.
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shmo_joe
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this indus Reply with quote

Somebody should do a study between low quality brass alloys vs high quality.
from sound point of view. There are many old vintage horns made with poor quality brass (full of red rot, etc .. ) but they sound good.

quality of metal vs quality of sound


Capt.Kirk wrote:


Likewise no reason why a $2000+ dollar domestic trumpet should have inferior materials to a $140-$240 Ebay main land made Chinese trumpet.
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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

afp wrote:

On the other hand many business's that make nothing, like Google and Facebook, make very high profit margins but add very little to our economy.


AAMOF, Facebook barely breaks even. Executive salaries are high and the founders made a bundle when the stock went public but.... Net revenues were miniscule last year (expressed as a percentage of sales) and expenses are expected to rise much more quickly than revenues for '13.

And "add very little to our economy?" Apparently the companies who spend billions to advertise on FB don't agree...
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Materials used Reply with quote

Much sage wisdom here and I decided to do something about it and defy the long metalurgical history [or is that metalogical?] and utilize new material in my leadpipes, something that has been used for thousands of years and ignored by the industry. Hell, the Romans were champions of this material and look at their history [do I smell smoke and hear a violin?]. I fashioned a leadpipe on my mandrel with this ancient material and wondered out loud why the music industry has ignored such a workable and readily available material for what seems like decades. Those industry leaders today see only the costs involved and the need to ship as many units out the factory doors as the workforce will allow. My mission is to make leadpipes as well as I can and damn the costs. I will soon have available the new "LEAD pipe" patterned after the Roman system.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns, available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or now in Europe at Musik-Bertram, Freiburg, Germany and Sydney, Australia at Sax and Woodwind...and Brass.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HA! That's a good one, Tony!

You scooped my idea (stolen from same Romans) for lead mouthpieces.

I think direct contact will really light up my life.
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shmo_joe
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Materials used Reply with quote

sn't lead (Pb) poison ?

"highly poisonous metal (regardless if inhaled or swallowed)"
this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead



Tony Scodwell wrote:
I will soon have available the new "LEAD pipe" patterned after the Roman system.
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not trying to inject another metal here but I believe that some postgers have been making use of irony.


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gbdeamer
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Materials used Reply with quote

shmo_joe wrote:
sn't lead (Pb) poison ?

"highly poisonous metal (regardless if inhaled or swallowed)"
this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead



Tony Scodwell wrote:
I will soon have available the new "LEAD pipe" patterned after the Roman system.


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TrentAustin
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Materials used Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
Much sage wisdom here and I decided to do something about it and defy the long metalurgical history [or is that metalogical?] and utilize new material in my leadpipes, something that has been used for thousands of years and ignored by the industry. Hell, the Romans were champions of this material and look at their history [do I smell smoke and hear a violin?]. I fashioned a leadpipe on my mandrel with this ancient material and wondered out loud why the music industry has ignored such a workable and readily available material for what seems like decades. Those industry leaders today see only the costs involved and the need to ship as many units out the factory doors as the workforce will allow. My mission is to make leadpipes as well as I can and damn the costs. I will soon have available the new "LEAD pipe" patterned after the Roman system.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns, available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or now in Europe at Musik-Bertram, Freiburg, Germany and Sydney, Australia at Sax and Woodwind...and Brass.


Tony I love you! See you next week?
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Materials used Reply with quote

TrentAustin wrote:
Tony I love you! See you next week?

I thought this was a trumpet site, not a dating site...
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afp
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeyMike wrote:
afp wrote:

On the other hand many business's that make nothing, like Google and Facebook, make very high profit margins but add very little to our economy.


AAMOF, Facebook barely breaks even. Executive salaries are high and the founders made a bundle when the stock went public but.... Net revenues were miniscule last year (expressed as a percentage of sales) and expenses are expected to rise much more quickly than revenues for '13.

And "add very little to our economy?" Apparently the companies who spend billions to advertise on FB don't agree...


Well, I wouldn't call their $1.0 Billion in profit in 2011 on $3.7 Billion in revenue as barely "breaking even," but hey, if that is what you want to call it that's fine. BTW, they paid no taxes for 2011 and in fact got a $429 million refund. In 2010 they had $1.974 Billion in revenue and a $606 million profit, and in 2009 they had $777 million in revenue and $229 in profit.

I am fine with companies making profit, in fact, I like it very much. However, if an oil company posted a 27% profit, much less got a huge tax refund, people would scream bloody murder. Yet oil companies' products are vital for society while Facebook is mostly entertainment and fluff.
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Brian Moon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this indus Reply with quote

shmo_joe wrote:
Somebody should do a study between low quality brass alloys vs high quality.
from sound point of view. There are many old vintage horns made with poor quality brass (full of red rot, etc .. ) but they sound good.

quality of metal vs quality of sound




You sit around for 50 years full of someone else's spit and see how you feel.

BTW the Capt doesn't know what he is talking about, as usual.
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AlfaFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Kreno
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this indus Reply with quote

MikeyMike wrote:
Capt.Kirk wrote:
We have an entire age called "The Bronze Age" the properties of copper allows and tin be it brass, bronze or just pure copper have been known to the world and fully understood for Near East 3600-1200BC and in Europe 3750-600BC. The dates are off Wikipedia article not fact checked by myself but seem reasonable.

So unless the trumpet manufacturing industry wants to claim it is well over 2000 years behind the times in knowledge of copper and tin alloys it has no excuse. For? Making leadpipes and main slides with yellow brass or even 70/30 cartridge brass as it is truly using today.

Likewise no reason why a $2000+ dollar domestic trumpet should have inferior materials to a $140-$240 Ebay main land made Chinese trumpet. Nothing less then GOld brass should be used. The leadpipe industry likewise if they are going to pick peoples pockets for $120-$235 for a thin drawn tube it should not be subject to red-rot easily again nothing less then 85% copper should be used. The color of the brass can easily be controlled by what else you add to it besides tin. You can make the brass as yellow, red,orange,golden as you like by what else you add to the copper. The less tin that is in it the less likely red-rot is to happen. There are copper roughs in Europe on some Church's and other building that are 1000 years old.

At the insanely high prices charged for trumpets made in the USA or Western Europe this is not asking for much. I am sure it will bankrupt them like seat-belts did to the Auto Industry. Oh wait a minute that did not pan out and cause them any harm did it???



That's AMAZING!!!! Here's something else to think about. The Stone Age ended about 6,000 years ago and we still haven't run out of stones!!! There are stones EVERYWHERE!!!!! The second law of thermodynamics proves we'll never run out of stones. EVER!!!! But try buying some stones for your patio. A decent granite counter top? That could set you back 200 bucks a square foot. FOR ROCKS!!!!! Those guys are 4.3 billion years behind the times. At least!!! Even farther behind in Australia because it's tomorrow there already so add a day to that.
I love how sarcastic this guy is! it's great!
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Materials used Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
TrentAustin wrote:
Tony I love you! See you next week?

I thought this was a trumpet site, not a dating site...


Now THAT qualifies as a low blow.

I love it!
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony, Tony, Tony. It's all been done before. I suggested that Mrs. Peacock use the Lead Pipe in the Ballroom to play the blues. She did and the music was killer! Get a Clue.

Brino
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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supportlivejazz
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this indus Reply with quote

Brian Moon wrote:
shmo_joe wrote:
Somebody should do a study between low quality brass alloys vs high quality.
from sound point of view. There are many old vintage horns made with poor quality brass (full of red rot, etc .. ) but they sound good.

quality of metal vs quality of sound




You sit around for 50 years full of someone else's spit and see how you feel.

BTW the Capt doesn't know what he is talking about, as usual.
That about says it all.
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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

afp wrote:

Well, I wouldn't call their $1.0 Billion in profit in 2011 on $3.7 Billion in revenue as barely "breaking even," but hey, if that is what you want to call it that's fine. BTW, they paid no taxes for 2011 and in fact got a $429 million refund. In 2010 they had $1.974 Billion in revenue and a $606 million profit, and in 2009 they had $777 million in revenue and $229 in profit.


Daylight savings tomorrow. Don't forget to set your clock ahead. And your calendar. It's 2013. Myself, I go by current financial data.
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see. Oil company profits are vital to society, the Bronze Age is ignored by trpt manufacturing, Facebook is really profitable, leadpipes made of pencil lead. Like Armstrong said, What a Wonderful World it would be.

ed
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