Bach 37 or Xeno

[OllieCarr]

Hi trumpeters.
Some of you may of seen my previous post about searching for trumpets.
I've narrowed it down to 2 models. The bach 37 and xeno. (please say if you think i made the wrong decision to go with these horns)
Chances are i'll go for a second hand.
I just wanted to know your opinions about the horns, pros/cons and there main differences.
Thanks a lot.
Oliver

[codyb334]

Before people start bashing these horns, and recommending another horn, why did you narrow it down to the 37 and Xeno?
_________________
-Cody
1970 Bach 37/7
1988 Yamaha 6340ST
Olds L12 Flugel
GR 67L
Monette Prana BL2 S3 XLT

[OllieCarr]

[Adam V]

Xenos will be a lot more consistent than Bachs, so your chances of finding lemons are slimmer. The average Xeno will probably play better than the average Bach 37, but if you find a really special 37, you won't even think twice.
_________________
1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel

Marcinkiewicz E3/3C

[OllieCarr]

[kylesherman]

In Texas that's what most of my students play. The xeno is cheaper typically and a good horn, the Bachs are usually more expensive but I the sound is nicer in my opinion. Bach holds its value better usually, assuming good care is being taken. Also not crazy about the xeno valves. Again all just my opinion

[codyb334]

I am going to assume that you are the average high school kid looking for an upgrade in their horn, correct? Do you have access to friends pro trumpets or a shop nearby that will let you play a few pro horns?

I played a really nice brand new 37 with a 25R leadpipe a few weeks ago, if I was not happy with my Yamaha I would get that horn. Do you have a budget in mind?

Check out this place: http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/

If you give that guy (Trent) a call, he would be more than glad to assist you. He knows his stuff.
_________________
-Cody
1970 Bach 37/7
1988 Yamaha 6340ST
Olds L12 Flugel
GR 67L
Monette Prana BL2 S3 XLT

[OllieCarr]

[codyb334]

Oh, well you are in Europe. Well maybe just email trent, save you the cost of an international phone call. Do not forget about the Bach 43 and 72 as well. I like the 43 a lot. Best of luck!
_________________
-Cody
1970 Bach 37/7
1988 Yamaha 6340ST
Olds L12 Flugel
GR 67L
Monette Prana BL2 S3 XLT

[a.kemp]

You can't go wrong with either of those horns! They are great. And, go with the one that you feel more comfortable playing!

[spach]

Here's an interesting post put up on TH in 2007:
Bach bell on a Yamaha xeno
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72879&sid=e555fb59ca52fd6f6487fc8405b32547
But being in Europe, you might want to try a B&S bell.
_________________
WayneG
1925 (or '34) MEHA (#878**)(.460)(4 3/4" bell)(32.6 oz.)
"Where, then, does the soul reside with its better body while it awaits the sound of the trumpet?"--Stephen J. Gould

[Louise Finch]

Hi Ollie

In my opinion, you have narrowed your search down to two middle of the road trumpets suitable for all-around playing, and have make a good decision.

Of course there are other options, but considering availability in the UK and realistically what makes/models you can try, I think that you have made a good choice.

For a used Bach, I would consider giving Eclipse a call, and seeing what they have taken in as trade. I bought mine from them used and refurbished. Presumably they also take in used Xenos as trade.

I would also suggest trying the Bach 43 and 72 bells. With all the bell and weight options with Bach, I would stay with a more all-around configuration, i.e. a standard weight body and a standard weight version of the 37 and 43 bells (the lightweight 72 bell would be fine), as you are presumably looking for a good middle of the road all-around trumpet.

If you go with the Xeno, in my opinion, and it is just my opinion, Yamaha trumpets play better with Yamaha mouthpieces than Bach mouthpieces, and I would suggest going for a Yamaha 14B4 (pretty similar to a Bach 3C) mouthpiece rather than the Bach 3C that you previously mentioned that you were going to go for.

Good luck with your search.

Take Care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[BedfordTrumpeter]

If you go with the Xeno, I'd recommend the gold brass bell model (RGS on the end of the model number). I've played the standard model and the RGS, and the difference in timbre was surprising. I much preferred the RGS.

Personally, I preferred the large bore Xeno (8345RGS) as well, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
_________________
CarolBrass 658R Bb | CarolBrass 506R Bb | CarolBrass 4000 C | Yamaha 631GS Flugel | CarolBrass 6882T Bb Cornet | Besson 60MD D/Eb | CarolBrass 7770F Picc. | Curry & Reeves mpcs
-------
http://www.bedfordbrassquintet.com

[Capt.Kirk]

The last Bach I played that I really liked was a made in New York and I doubt you looking at one of those. I agree the Xeno's are more consistent from horn to horn. When you do find a flawed Bach that is spectacular they are a thing to hear but again they are rare. The average Bach 180/37 is what I call the lowest possible denominator for a "Pro" trumpet. Nothing wrong with the Bach it is just over priced and very very average in terms of build quality, materials and sound. Everything else is either equal to, better or worse then a Bach.

I would say that most people parroting the "Bach is quality" line are either brain washed or just not up to date with all the trumpets that are as good or better on the market. Kanstul makes a Bach clone that is as good or better and cheaper. Getzen has several models that are as good or better. CarolBrass's pro models make Bach Strad's look like Chinese made junk in terms of materials, fit, finish and sound quality and they are cheaper!

If you looking at Yamaha's you need to look at the YTR 6335 and the YTR 6345 they are booth cheaper then the Xeno and every bit as good. The 6xxx Mark II models where the latest and greatest prior to the 8xxx and Xeno lines. I think the world of the YTR-6345.


It is sad really that with so many fantastic trumpets out their in the market place that the Bach Strad still get's far too much hype and acclaim. It is not based on merit the current Bach Strad design has really nothing in common with the Bach Stradivarius that earned the reputation that is still going on strong. You could not interchange a slide slide, bell, leadpipe, valve casing etc.....In spite of this fact ignorant parroting based on a design that is no more still manages to sell 20,000 trumpets a year.

If you have your heart set on a Bach do yourself a favor and try a 43 bell and a 72 bell model. Both of those bells tend to be much more versatile then the 37 bell. I favor the 72 bell, 7 bell and 38 bell over the 37 bell. The 37 bell has to be the worst bell Bach makes and it is a very limiting bell profile especially when teamed up with the 25 pipe. You will outgrow the 37/25 combo much faster then you will a 72 bell model.

Depending on your unique sound the 43 or 72 bell will more then likely sound unbelievably better for you then the 37. More and more people are taking the chance and leaving the 37 bell behind and not missing it at all. You see more and more 37 bells for sale now. You almost never see a 72,38,7 or 65 bell for sale because very few people ever want to remove them and replace them with another bell. On top of that you do not see that many used 72,65,7,38 belled trumpets for sale used again people tend to hang on to them. Their are many reasons we see a lot of Bach 37 belled trumpets and their clones on the used market and their used bells on the market!!!!!!

P.S. You could get a brand new CarolBrass Pro model for less then a used Bach Strad or Xeno and it is as good or better then the Bach or Xeno.

I would call Osmuns and Ken Larson and see what they have used. You know if you buy from either of them your Bach or Xeno will have been gone over with a fine tooth come and any intonation or play-ability issues will have been fixed before they sold it! Most music shops just clean it and put it up for sale.
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[quackyneudle]

To my ears, the 37 is a nicer sounding horn. The xenos, with the exception of the reversed leadpipe model, don't quite have as lively a sound as I like. Since you are considering getting a used instrument, look around for a less expensive one and have it sent to ken larson or any of the top techs for a reconfiguration. You'll end up with a stellar horn for less than a new one costs, and it will play better than a new one too. This really only applies to bachs though, because yamaha horns are very consistent with an average build quality superior to the bach.

I did see that you are looking for a very versatile horn. I think the reversed leadpipe xeno is more versatile than the bach 37, but I have found that a standard weight bach body with a 72 lightweight bell is super versatile. It can get a really nice big rich sound with good projection in a classical setting, but if you give it some gas it makes a great lead horn. You may wish to consider that option.

Another reply mentioned the yamaha 6335/6345 models (mL vs L bore). I played a 6345 with a gold brass bell for three years in college and it was a great horn and they can be found pretty cheaply. I liked it better than any of the xeno models.

[Venturi]

Unless you're a truly accomplished player who has developed particularly clear preferences over years and years of playing, a good specimen of either of the horns that you mention will be a fine axe.

A good example of a 37 or a good example of a Xeno will be absolutely fine.

[Blue Trane]

Bach 37 no question.

[delano]

Look to you earlier post here, same stuff anyway:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123810

[roytrpt]

I spent years playing Bachs, and for many years I would try Yamahas (worked in a music store) The Yamahas always played easier and more in tune, but lacked the Bach sound.

At some point I realized that all of my better students playing on Yamahas, sounded like they were playing on Bachs.

Nature or nurture.
_________________
Roy Miller

[Crazy Finn]

Mind over matter. Matter over mind.

Hearing with eyes. The eyes are bad at listening.

I had a few music colleagues tell me for years to quit playing my 6335 and get a Bach. Then I'd do blind sound tests and they all picked the 6335. Every time. Funny, that.

Not sayin' that Yamahas are better than Bachs. Not the reverse either. Different players, different horns, different rooms, too many variables.

Just saying some people hear things differently when they're seeing though a preconceived notion. Then they're not really listening.

Also, most of the time, when I play stuff for people with a bunch of different horns (thanks to TH, in part, I now have a bunch) most of the time when asked which sound they preferred, they didn't even know I switched. So that part that about seeing and hearing applies to the player as well.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn