Home made valve oil recipes

[butxifxnot]

I'm out. Interested in hearing some of the best home made valve oil recipes.
_________________
"Never practice, always perform."
-Adolf Herseth

[Capt.Kirk]

For horns in good shape:

10%-30% Automatic Transmission Fluid or 3in1 Oil

to

70%-90% Ultra Pure Lamp Oil.

For very worn old trumpets that need a valve job:

50% ATF or 3in1

to

50% Ultra Pure Lamp Oil


Old Horn-U-Copia Recipe for old horns, euphoniums, Helicon etc.....

50% 3in1 Oil

to

50% Blue Juice


Why Synthetic ATF like Walmarts Dex IV or VI I forgot the latest GM Dex standard at this second? ATF id basically hydraulic fluid with a very very low level of additives. All additives used in it are tested to be safe for use with bronze,silver,plastic,aluminum,nickle, stainless steel etc.....Motor oil and Gear lube include additives that are not at all safe for use in contact with yellow metals. They are buffered but that is not the same as being "safe". Oil is loaded with additives that can cause corrosion in brass and gear lube is acid based technology and loaded with sulfur.

3in1 is one of the most time tested general purpose oils you can buy int he USA. It has been developed for use on firearms, fishing gear and everything else. The anti-corrosion package is well tested.

I tested the above for over 6 months before I posted it on stainless steel pistons, monel pistons, nickle, copper plated pistons. Tested on trumpets from 1946 up to modern models. So it was not just one trumpet and it was not just a few weeks. Some parts that where spares like extra set of used pistons had been in testing for over 9 months before I posted.

Likewise I did not cover those attempts that where less then fantastic. Like I did not post my attempt at using plant based oils for valve oil.

I also make slide grease and slide oil for trombone.

Trumpet lube is simple and easy compared the oil and gear lubes I formulate for my daily driver's. My daily driver has 125,000.00 miles and still does not use any oil between oil changes and is like new mechanically.

By having a variable formula you are able to match the oil to the clearances of your trumpet so that you always have the perfect oil for the job.

I should mention most of my kids trumpet section and all of the low brass use my oil formulation via my oldest boy. They all borrow his oil regularly. So that is even more use and not a single complaint or issue to date. So in the last 3 years no issues out of about 20 kids over at least 3 years.
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[Dale Proctor]

Mix about 15 parts air to one part gasoline, ignite it with a spark, and use the energy produced to propel you in your auto to your local music store to buy more valve oil.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[codyb334]

Hrm, try 3 drops of Alison and 3 drops of air. Should do the trick.
_________________
-Cody
1970 Bach 37/7
1988 Yamaha 6340ST
Olds L12 Flugel
GR 67L
Monette Prana BL2 S3 XLT

[yourbrass]

[Dale Proctor]

[THE BD]

1. Save your pennies

2. Go buy Hetmans or Ultra Pure, or whatever your you like. Pick your poison
_________________
Martin D Williams

Yeah, I did that!

[chuck in ny]

free speech is a responsibility as well as a privilege.
use of highly deleterious substances such as 3 in 1 and ATF is not recommended for something you put your mouth to. you don't want it leaching out the instrument's joints into your case, or the minute amount that will get on the horn's exterior.
anything that will break a frozen bolt's bond will tear up your physiology. we have crystal meth for that purpose.
my butt is so tight it squeaks when i walk and i would still recommend hetman's or UP and spending small money on your business/hobby. if there were a way to get over on the lubricant scheme and not have to change the truck's oil we might be in a productive area, but there's no out and we are not, you have to pay.

[leadbell]

"If I find out that you put ANYTHING in your horn that isn't made SPECIFICALLY for brass instruments I will force feed you whatever it was!"
my private teacher had that written on all of his hand outs, (warmup sheets, bills, every sheet of paper he handed out), and I totally agree with this sentiment. in the long run putting ATF or 3-in-1 is not to bright, ATF is designed for high friction and high temperature operation and is a good deal more viscous than any valve oil I have ever seen, 3-in-1 is good for lawnmowers, chainsaws, lathes, and bicycle chains but NOT trumpets.
also ATF smells funny.
_________________
'16 Buescher Model 15
'18 Buescher Model 15 LP
'25 Buescher Model 9 LP
'51 Buescher Aristocrat trombone
and a lamp made from a Czech "Symphony" trumpet that was beyond repair.

[zaferis]

large, rich corporations with scientists on the payroll have done tons of research looking for the best answer to this...

use there work! - Al Cass, Yamaha, Ultra-Pure, Hetman, Blue Juice, 5-Star, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.....
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[spach]

[gbdeamer]

I don't go through a lot of valve oil each year so the expense isn't so great that I find the need to make my own.

I like to think I'm supporting my local music shop and the valve oil manufacturer when I go out and buy it.
_________________
1987 Bach Strad 37
2005 Bach Strad 43*
ACB Doubler's Flugel
1948 Holton Model 48

[supportlivejazz]

Un-scented lamp oil was mentioned here years ago. I had a quart and tried it on an old horn and it worked well, but have not used it since. But it has to be a great idea.... I read it here.
_________________
Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet






"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."

[spach]

Here's the link to Tony Scodwell's recipe posted on TH several years ago.
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1113875
I just placed an order on Amazon for a 32 oz. bottle of Lamplight Farms "Ultra-Pure" lamp oil, and a 3 oz. bottle of Mil-Comm MC2500 gun oil ($38.61 for both)...Opps--make that $34.16.
_________________
WayneG
1925 (or '34) MEHA (#878**)(.460)(4 3/4" bell)(32.6 oz.)
"Where, then, does the soul reside with its better body while it awaits the sound of the trumpet?"--Stephen J. Gould

[supportlivejazz]

Yup that's the stuff Ultra Pure.
_________________
Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet






"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."

[Capt.Kirk]

Dale made a funny but since it seems to have gone over most peoples heads I will explain.


Stoichiometric Mixture is in theory abut 15:1 for the AFR. The idea is you want just enough air present to allow complete combustion of the fuel which in America is primarily petro/benzene or gasoline. In reality stoichiometric mixture produce a flame too hot under high load and cause pinging and knock and can cause damage to the pistons and rods due to denotation which is not the controlled burning we want rather more like an explosion.

25/2 O2 + C8H18------>8CO2+9H2O That is the oxidation reaction for this process.

Any mixture less then 15:1 is considered "rich" because it produces a rich flame any mixture greater then 15:1 considered "lean" because it produces a lean flame.


AFR=mAIR/mFUEL.......we can make it far more complicated if you like but I am keeping it simple. Hopefuly now Dales joke will make sense.

In today's age of lean burn and direct injection and forced induction you can realistically see AFR's from 10:1 to 20:1 and everything in between depending on the load, rpm's, and correction for non-standard atmospherics's.

The above just applies to car's in the most rudimentary form. I did not get into jet turbine applications for both aircraft and power plants and did not get into natural gas, coal dust injection, international formula's or government formula's and such.

So I hope this makes the Dales joke make a little more sense. Keep in mind though that stoichiometric mixture never work out like the theory does in real life. You have about 4 miliseconds for the entire process to happen in a car turning not more then 6000 rpms. As rpms climb the amount of time for the process to happen decreases. So at 12,000 rpms you would have 2 miliseconds to complete combustion. One of the reasons OEM's try to keep average RPM's well bellow 6000rpms on a daily driver or work vehicle is to improve emissions. The more time you have to complete the combustion process the more predictable emissions are.

I have not had a single person complain about my recipe. Everyone who has tried it has liked it once they found there personal ideal ratio of ATF to Ultra Pure Lamp oil. I have had quite a few people compliment me on the formulation. From this sight. Saying anything positive though about anything I post is a quick way to be a social outcast so I get these compliments in the form of PM's.

People might not like the fact that I am like Joe Friday character from Dragnet " Just the facts ma'am Just the Facts!!" but I get results and I am not a victim to esoteric mumbo jumbo when discussing machines! I save esoteric stuff and faith based belief for my religious and spiritual endeavors not for my understanding and maintenance of machines!!!

No Technical Rebuttal for anything I said relating to lubricants and formulations.

Also 3in1 oil and Blue Juice typically are not found in the automotive section at any auto parts store I am aware of.

I think 3in1 is in the Automotive/Boat section at Walmart but not in the same isle as motor oil, atf, gear lube etc....I think it is in the snake oil/air freshner/fuel injector cleaner/ ac recharge kit section one isle over.

Never seen any valve oil for sale separately from first act trumpet kit at a Walmart ever. Never seen Ultra Pure Lamp Oil for sale at an auto parts store or in the automotive section at Walmart.

So looks like with all Dales education in all things trumpet he cannot find any scientifically valid reason not to try my formula. More to the point he can not site a scientific reason to continue to use the cheap junk sold as valve oil or any thing that makes store bought valve oil superior to anything you make yourself. Keep in mind that most valve oils for trumpet are not being blended in sophisticated laboratories and their R&D is not any more sophisticated then mine.Do you then Kanstul,Conn,Bach, B&S are rigorously testing valve oil with some industry standard testing produces? No ASTM testing standards set up for trumpet valve oil if we did have such a thing I am sure 95% of the products on the market would not be on the market. In fact if trumpet valve oil mattered at all the FTC would take most of them to court for make false claims about their products especially anything with PTFE aka Teflon in it. You need only look at all the automotive products with PTFE in them that have been taking to court by FTC Slick50 is one such company and Duralube is another. Also companies selling chlorinated parafins have also been taking to court.

Unlike the junk sold as valve oil General Motor's ATF has been tested against all the materials that one will find in a transmission or hydraulic system. So we know for a fact it's chemistry is safe for yellow metals, silver,nickle,stainless steel, aluminum, most polymers and fluorocarbons and plastic.

On top of that we know most valve oils are mostly kerosene, jet fuel or lamp oil if your lucky with some animal fats or plant oils tossed in in small amounts and or some mineral oil. So the second you add 10%-30% ATF to essentially the same bulk petro distillates you are already ahead in the game.

The problem with gun oils and cleaner is they are designed to remove copper jacket material. That means they have chemicals in them that dissolve copper based alloys chemically to lift them from the bore. In case some of you are not aware brass is made from copper typical a trumpet will be made today from 70% copper and 30% of other alloying agents like zink and tin. Outside of cowboy action shooting and the Henry .22 rifle we do not use brass or copper in any part of a gun in todays day and age. That means that the only copper is from jacket material that we want to remove from our rifles because copper fouls the barrel just like lead does only at much higher velocities.

Unless you email the company making a gun cleaning or oiling product and specifically ask them if their product is safe for lubrication of brass objects and parts you are taking a risk that you do not need to take. On top of that as much as I like Tony's honesty and openness with a good deal of what he does his recipe is no better then mine in any way. In fact I would say it is grossly inferior from a lubrication stand point. I guarantee that Tony does not know more then me about lubrication of anything not trumpets, not aircraft, not tanks, not rockets, not car's. That is a bold statement that I have more then backed up in the past. I have forgotten more about the lubrication of machines of all sorts then most will ever know. In fact on this one topic if you took every person on this sight and added up everything they know about lubrication and oil formulation I think I would be very safe in saying I know more.

In the fast Tony's recipe was was 10 drops of BreakFree CLP added to a bottle of valve oil or lamp oil I think? BreakFree CLP which was developed for the Military to keep their aluminum, nitrated and chrome lined M16's free or carbon fouling and copper fouling.. None of the parts are yellow metal based and all of the parts that are aluminium or steel have hard surface treatments to either make the part more durable or to keep it from corroding. It is also used by the Motor-Pool like civilians use PB Blaster. In addition to PTFE it has if I recall properly chlorinated parafins, solvents and other chemistry that has never been tested for use on yellow metals.

I tested BreakFree CLP in it's pure form on trumpet valves and slides. In short order it produced lots of greenish-blue reside when ever you would empty water from your water keys. That told me it was attacking the copper in the brass. We call that chemical corrosion/erosion in lubrication circles and it is just as real as mechanical erosion or wear.

Now that said I am sure Tony's 10 drops diluted into a bottle of valve oil was not going to kill trumpets left right and center but it is still harmful chemistry that is not needed to produce the protection we want. It is kind of like trying to make a case for ingesting low amounts of lead,cadmium, or arsenic no good comes from it so why ingest it if you do not have too?

On top of that what is 10 drops of anything in 2 onces of lamp oil going to do in terms of maintaining hydrodynamic wedge or film strength? It would be like adding one shot of anything to 4 quarts of diesel fuel and dumping that into the engine of your car and thinking that the one shot of magic elixir is going to offset the fact that you have 4 quarts of diesel fuel as your lubrication agent.

Not tested any newer formula he might have but really the lubrication industry for firearms is like the Wildwest and is just as un-regulated and un-tested as trumpet valve oil is. Ammonia and various acids are in common use in firearm lubes to clean out fouling. An acid or ammonia in low enough concentration is no big deal to most steels in firearms but steel and brass are not even remotely the same.

On top of that one of the oldest home brew gun cleaners that has never damaged a single firearm is "Ed's Red" it is acetone and automotive ATF. It is not that great of a cleaner because Acetone is not a very powerful solvent when talking about steel. ATF has nothing in it at all that would react to any steel in use in firearms from the 1800's up to today it is even safe for use on brass.

Keep in mind guns that have yellow metal are usually the receiver is made out of an billet or casting of brass not a wimpy .025 inch thick thin walled tube and any nickle parts are pure nickle not 60% or more copper with a little bit of nickle tossed in. I have never seen a brass pistol or rifle receiver suffer from red-rot let alone red-rot to the point that the parts failed to hold up their own weight.
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[horseman59]

I received Ultra-Pure with two new horns recently, so I thought I'd give it a try. I had no end of trouble keeping my valves moving freely, compared to what I have been used to the past 33 years. I have since gone back to what works best for me - straight diesel fuel. Best valve oil ever. I don't mind spending money for a product that works, but when the fancy stuff leaves me wondering if I can get through a job without valves sticking, no thanks. I've used diesel fuel since 1980, when a college associate recommended it. It doesn't smell the best, but it'll sure keep your valves moving. And all that stuff about whether it's safe to ingest?? - I don't plan on sucking on my valves any time soon. Last time I checked the air going through the horn was moving away from me.

[Gordontrek]

The way it looks to me, it's more expensive to make your own oil than it is to go out and grab a bottle of blue juice. Not to mention you'd have to go several different places.
Then again, my dad's a darn good mechanic. Let's see what he's got out there in the garage.....
_________________
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." George S. Patton Jr.
"Those who have achieved all their aims probably set them too low." Herbert von Karajan

Bach 18043
Eastman ETR-830S
Bach 1

[Dale Proctor]

I choose not to try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to valve oil. Why try all these concoctions when there are so many valve oil choices out there? I know it's a fun discussion, and I realize some people think they can do better than the professional horn designers and oil chemists. Hence, my little joke about fuel/air mixture and driving to the store to buy oil.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[spach]