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campbrd Regular Member
Joined: 01 Sep 2002 Posts: 56 Location: Huntsville, AL
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: Benge gap |
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As I understand it, the receiver couples the mouthpiece to the leadpipe and the gap is the space between the end of the mouthpiece shank and the beginning of the leadpipe. The beginning of the leadpipe is clearly visible on my 1971 Bach Strad and is approximately the width of the wall of the mouthpiece shank and the gap is easily measured. I cannot determine where the beginning of the leadpipe is on my 1982 Benge 3X MLP. It is not visible and I cannot feel where it is by probing with a paper clip. How can there be a gap here? Since others have mentioned adjusting the gap on their Benges, there must be. Another, older Benge 3X I checked is just like mine. Can any of you Benge owners confirm this? _________________ Richard Campbell
Brass Band of Huntsville
Rocket City Jazz Orchestra
http://rocketcityjazz.net/
Moondust Big Band
http://www.moondustbigband.com/ |
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Adam V Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2008 Posts: 1765 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Benge horns are known for having little to no "ledge" at the butt of the leadpipe. This is partly what gives them their characteristic loose slotting.
The ideal gap for a Benge pipe is 1/4", which is double that of a "normal" horn. You shouldn't worry about getting your gap adjusted, because unless the receiver is noticeably worn, the gap should be somewhere in the ballpark of 1/4". _________________ 1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel
Marcinkiewicz E3/3C |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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The ideal gap will change from player to player and mouthpiece to mouthpiece. The ideal gap on any given horn is the one that gives the player the greatest ease of playing and the best intonation possible. I will ask a friend of mine who is a Bange owner and understands gap to chime in on this tomorrow. _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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markchuvala Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2007 Posts: 640
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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There is NO right or wrong answer.
Correct gap has many variables, cup shape, depth, to blow, backbore, to the way mother nature dictates the way you play.
I play a Benge 2X+ currently and I use a Stomvi 4.5 and sometimes 5 sleeve/coupler. But others have played my mouthpiece and horn and use radically different couplers with success.
If your piece is cut for sleeves...get a few different ones and experiment. It's AMAZING what a difference you can get with a thousandths of an inch change.
Gap is important, and size does matter.
Agreed..it is supposed to be fun!
-Mark |
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Bill Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 636 Location: Wilmington, North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:31 am Post subject: |
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Hi Richard, great to see you post.
Mark is exactly right.
I am trying to figure out my ideal gap on my 3MLP as well. Mines a little older (1970)and just had the leadpipe replaced by Byron Autrey. Mouthpieces have different overall lengths and also different girths which affect how deep the end of the shank goes when seated in the receiver.
Trent Austin has just reverse engineered my favorite Curry mpc and made it a 2 piece. He cut the backbore for sleeves and has shipped a selection of sleeves so I can figure out what works best, then I will return the rest.
I visited his shop for an entire afternoon in December and had dinner with him. I made my decision to trust this project to him based on this visit. He understands the deal and is competent to guide me. That's just my opinion.
Good luck and take care! _________________ Bill Mirrielees
Wilmington NC
Wilmington Big Band
Artistry In Jazz Big Band
Snake Malone and the Black Cat Bone Blues Band |
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gchun01 Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2013 Posts: 270
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Another factor to consider is that old Benge receivers tend to be stretched. They are thin and long years of playing and mouthpiece wear will cause the gap to narrow over time. Unfortunately the Conn-Selmer replacement looks completely different than the old LA part. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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qcm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:42 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | Another factor to consider is that old Benge receivers tend to be stretched. They are thin and long years of playing and mouthpiece wear will cause the gap to narrow over time. Unfortunately the Conn-Selmer replacement looks completely different than the old LA part. |
If you need a Benge replacement part, you should contact Kanstul.
They still have the original Benge tooling.
-Dave _________________ Dave Edwards
Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc. |
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Bill Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 636 Location: Wilmington, North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Byron Autrey also has many original Benge parts and tooling as well - he's in southern Michigan and was Elden's first shop tech and salesperson.
He did the leadpipe, tuning slide and valves on mine. Pretty incredible work. I'm sure Zig would have done same. _________________ Bill Mirrielees
Wilmington NC
Wilmington Big Band
Artistry In Jazz Big Band
Snake Malone and the Black Cat Bone Blues Band |
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JohnSnell Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2002 Posts: 126 Location: Valencia, CA
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Bob Reeves has a great story from his time at Benge that may give some insight into why the gap is usually so large on a Benge trumpet:
Quote: | When I was working for Benge, Elden was working on the receiver placement on his trumpets. He had the guys in the shop set up a Bb with the receiver tight but not soldered so it could be adjusted.
Elden would play something then back the receiver out a bit increasing the gap. He kept pulling the receiver out and increasing the gap until it played good for him then had the guys solder it in place.
He was going to play test using a prototype Benge mouthpiece, but they had one of the polishers put in the backbore and he broke the backbore tool. Instead, Elden pulled out his own Bach mouthpiece. Who knows how old that thing was. Even though he was retired from playing, Benge was a very strong player. The combination of his strength and his old Bach mouthpiece may be the reason why the Benges have a larger gap than normal.
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_________________ John Snell
Bob Reeves Brass Mouthpieces
www.bobreeves.com
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The Other Side of the Bell - A Trumpet Podcast |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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qcm wrote: | yourbrass wrote: | Another factor to consider is that old Benge receivers tend to be stretched. They are thin and long years of playing and mouthpiece wear will cause the gap to narrow over time. Unfortunately the Conn-Selmer replacement looks completely different than the old LA part. |
If you need a Benge replacement part, you should contact Kanstul.
They still have the original Benge tooling.
-Dave |
Thanks Dave, I'll keep that in mind. Conn-Selmer is ending the Benge brand anyway, many parts are discontinued.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: Reeves |
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Bob tells the story. I've heard it a number of times over the years from different people. What you think is a great Benge is often decided, or answered for, at the receiver/ leadpipe. |
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campbrd Regular Member
Joined: 01 Sep 2002 Posts: 56 Location: Huntsville, AL
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the comments guys. I don't know if I have a discerning enough ear or chops to be able to detect changes in gap but it is an interesting subject to me. If I can ever part with it for any length of time, I think I will send it to Kanstul.
Richard |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:47 am Post subject: |
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OK, so you fellows got me going on this Benge gaposis question. I got out both horns and my cigar box of Benge parts and did some quick measuring:
Benge 3X+, (ca. 1974) 1/8" (old and stretched)
Benge 3x, (ca 1967) 3/16" (replaced receiver)
Original assembly for the old 3X, 5/16"
2 NOS Benge D leadpipe assemblies, 3/16" and 1/4"
2 NOS " Bb " " , 3/16" and 1/4"
So there you have it, it seems to partially depend on how the receiver was drawn as to whether it was 3/16" or a quarter inch, as there wasn't any depth difference on the NOS pipes between the end of the receiver and the beginning of the leadpipe. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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