More swelling when switching to smaller mouthpieces

deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

Has anyone else noticed that their lips get more swollen after a long gig on smaller pieces than they did when they were using larger pieces. I have noticed that after a long gig my lips get swollen more often than i remember it happening when i played bigger mouthpieces. I used to play 1.5C (Bach) and now use 00c, (curry precision). it may also be that i am not getting enough time on the horn between gigs, but i don't really remember this happening when i used the bigger stuff with similar breaks between gigs.

just wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences.

thanks

tom

bwoodard · Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:11 am Post subject:

Tom

When you say smaller are you referring to the inner diameter or the cup depth or both? It may be that you are swelling the same and that you just bottom on a shallow piece where you didn't on a deeper piece. On a smaller diameter piece your working area is focused over less lip surface area which may be causing some of your issues as well.
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deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

TKSop · Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:33 am Post subject:

deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

Louise Finch

deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

hi louise,

i had played a 30C for sometime actually, before moving down to the 00C.
the .600 Id is really small i realize and i played fairly well on the 30C. I have found that my sound is so much more focused on the 00C. I switch out the cups for different situations. I use 00M, 00C, 00BC and 00TC to change my tone color. I have been giving it some thought and i really thinking its just lack of time being put it in. So when i do get a long gig i just don't have enough time invested on my lip so the swelling is inevitable. Work schedule makes it harder to find time to play but i'll have to work it out. BTW, I have just as big and full a sound on these small pieces as i use to on the 1.5C and it's alot easier playing above the staff for me now. Anyway, thank you very much for your ideas and comments on my post, Very much appreciated.

regards
Tom

brassjunky · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:56 am Post subject:

I think swelling is more noticeable on smaller pieces. I haven't found they cause more swelling. I play on pretty small piece and on the odd occasion I get some swelling it is uncomfortable to play - my lips get a bit trapped and don't vibrate freely. I have found playing loud above the staff on my shallow lead piece helpful in getting my lips back out the cup.
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Louise Finch · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:09 am Post subject:

deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

Louise,

This problem occurs usually the next day after a gig, I can play all night long, but the next day it shows itself by my lack of ability to play above G on top of the staff, The lips just don't vibrate well the next day, They feel stiff, can't see that they are swollen though, So i'm really thinking that i need to warm down for quite a while before putting the horn away, which isn't always easy when trying to pack up and get out of the Bar or Hall after a long night. I'll figure it out.
I was really hoping one of the guys who play the small stuff might comment. I know Lex Samu plays the really small stuff from reading his posts, I will figure it all out i suppose. I have been resting my lip more during practice and thankfully it's Ok for Easter Mass. I got asked to play a couple of pieces, doing Mouret's Rondeau on my Bb, i don't own a pic, or a C trumpet, gonna play the C trumpet part though, which only goes up to high D, Music guy just hits a button on the organ and matches the key, wish we could do that, sounds a little pic'ish when i use my 00M, A bunch of little herald things here and there during the mass. Again thanks for your ideas !!

regards

Tom

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:30 am Post subject:

BuzzFest · Regular Member Joined: 07 Oct 2010 Posts: 20

Yes, I had the same problem. I have always played a 1C for orchestral playing, but have also felt that it is a very big mouthpiece. I tried to go down the small mouthpiece path for several months and all of what you describe happened to me as well. Not that I'm happy that this happened to you, but I'm glad to hear of someone else describing the same symptoms.

The smaller mouthpieces left little room for swelling. I constantly felt bruised and swollen the next day, always thinking that it was just a matter of time before I got acclimated. It never happened! Advice like "think bigger" or "let the mouthpiece do the work" made me hang in there and made me think I was simply not being efficient enough. Totally frustrating and scary. So, what changed?

I thought, "When was the last time I was truly comfortable and in charge of my playing?" It was when I was on bigger equipment, of course. The problem was that going right back to bigger mouthpieces felt horrible! I had to spend months working my way back but it was worth it. I now feel like my old self again and ironically the upper register feels freer and easier - as long as I'm in shape (that's the kicker). This may not apply to you - playing big mouthpieces for it's own sake. At least consider the last time you felt awesome playing the trumpet. My guess is that it's on a bigger m.p. that you're currently on.

deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

thanks buzzfest and Louise for your comments, I am going to have to commit to some sort of daily routine and some consistent amount of time on the horn each day, i think that's the only way to know if its the mouthpiece size or just a matter of not being in shape lip wise. Funny though, sometimes these mouthpieces (00 size) feel almost too big to me and have been thinking about going smaller, but that's for another time.

regards,

tom

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:19 am Post subject:

Hi Tom

You are very welcome.

Good luck with solving this.

Please keep this thread updated with your findings.

Take Care

Lou
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BuzzFest · Regular Member Joined: 07 Oct 2010 Posts: 20

cheiden · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:03 am Post subject:

Most people can't play a piece as small as the Curry 00, way smaller than a Schilke 6A4a. I respect that you feel your sound is "more focused" on the microscopic ID but it's clearly at an unreasonable cost. I'd find a more modest size Curry that gives you most of the sound without the inherent problems.

And I concur that you're never going to play consistently without a well crafted daily routine.

Best of luck.
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razeontherock · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject:

B. Scriver · Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:14 am Post subject:

Lip swelling the next day is not just about the mouthpiece. It’s an overuse injury. It happens due to many reasons. The result is that the body is not able to repair itself and you have a breakdown, therefore, more and more damage can occur without proper rest or solving the root of the problem. The swelling is the result, what is the root?

The match between the man, mouthpiece, and horn should be looked at. The music is too demanding or you have to manipulate. Too much pressure on the face leads to swelling. Proper use of core or core engagement can prevent much of it. A system that is too open and you don’t get enough acoustical feedback causing you to push beyond your limits. A mouthpiece rim/mismatch or condition that cuts off blood flow and damages tissue. This condition can be managed to a point. If out of control it will take a lot of work to repair the damage.

Gary Radtke
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INTJ-disable · Veteran Member Joined: 01 Mar 2014 Posts: 361

I play on a small MP. It's a Wedge and the narrow side is less than a Curry 00 while the tall size is around a Bach 6. I almost never get a "stiff lip" anymore but I have been working very hard to play with minimum tension and to never play unless my chops are loose and free.

A small MP is very good at exposing any tension in our playing, while a larger MP hides it. I downsized all the way from a Curry 70 to what I play now, and each step along the way yeilded an improvement. It wasn't range that improved, but my flexibility improved with no loss in the quality of my sound. I went slowly with this downsizing, play on the same MP for several months before moving smaller.

Interstingly, I am not able to play a shallower cup. I use a medium shallow "D" cup and it fits me well. I bottom out on an "E" cup. I also have "C" and "B" cup MPs in my rim. When I play the "B" cup I have to watch my lip intrusion if I am going to go back to the "D" cup without taking a break.
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deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

Hello to all the responders to my question about swelling. I appreciate it immensely that you took some time to add to this discussion. So yesterday i played in church for the first time ever. It went very well, I used my Curry 00C piece as it is what i call my middle of the road piece. I warmed up nicely before getting to church, just quiet breath attack stuff and never pushed it. At church I continued my warm up with a homemade renuzit whispa mute. I played from low C to high D above the staff during the course of the Mass. Everything went fine, sound was clear and articulations were crisp. So what i'm getting at is that i really think the size of my pieces are fine. I have what i would say is a thin top lip and don't really have a problem with the lip vibrating over such a small surface, As i stated earlier i almost seem to have more lip in the cup now than before i switched. I am really thinking that this has to be my lack of preparation. I get gigs here and there, between those gigs i can go for days without touching the horn, this ofcourse is not ideal, but currently my work situation prevents any kind of real steady practice time. I am working to resolve this as well. Some days i can put on a piece and the lips are vibrating so freely that i easily play above high C. Its intoxicating up there, and i guess i must be over doing it, resulting in an Overuse situation. thus, the swelling, Rest as much as you play is a tough one for me as well. I am going to stick with my 00 curry's and really concentrate on all the reasons i switched to them, Ease of play, flexibility thru the horn, and tight focused sound, alot less pressure. I have started to do a fascimile of leadpipe buzzing, which i use to do with regularity. I cut a length of reinforced hose to the length of my leadpipe, it almost perfectly matched the inner diameter of my leadpipe, and i keep it and one of my pieces with me at all times now, i am doing it in the car, at work, at home, anywhere i can really, Just shorts little buzzez, a few minutes at a time. The lips vibrate like crazy and i can get in a little work and keep the lips focused, time will tell if this helps. Nothing can beat time on the horn, but i just don't have that luxury anymore.
Once again, thanks for all your comments.

regards,

Tom