Does size of mouthpiece affect muscles used

x9ret

Hi everyone,
So two months ago I played on a 7C bach trumpet mouthpiece.
I changed to play on a 3. I preferred this.
So for 2 months I've played on a 3.

Two days ago, for fun, I tried playing with a 7C. I found that when I went up for high notes the muscles beneath my right cheek were trying to work. That is a habit I'm trying to get out of since I've discovered on the 3 when the muscles below to the right are used then I get much high range and power and better sound. So am trying to shake off those cheek muscles being used when I go high. No idea where that habit came from. When those muscles to the bottom right are struggling I've noticed that the cheek muscles try and work, almost like a fallback option.

I found it interesting that the other night my cheek muscles were trying to work with the 7C, almost like my bottom right muscles couldn't 'fit' into the 7C perhaps. This made me wonder whether mouthpiece size can influence which muscles get used, not just comfort on the lip.
_________________
https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong

VetPsychWars · Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:53 am Post subject:

I have no answer for you from an expert perspective but my experience has been that mouthpieces of larger sizes are too big for me and require much more muscle to hold an effective embouchure. Moving smaller has been the best thing ever and the piece I'm playing now is the best I've ever played... and it's about 0.590" to 0.600" though it feels a lot larger because of the soft bite.

My lips are thin and not fleshy at all, so take that into account.

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

x9ret · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:04 pm Post subject:

Cheers. Well I've dumped the Bach 3 now and going back onto 2 1/2 C. The 3 was giving a nice sound but too much hard work to play it. Not when you're fresh, but after playing for a bit.
_________________
https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong

Louise Finch · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:21 pm Post subject:

Hi

I cannot comment on your original question, but may I ask why you are now switching to a 2 1/2C?. I'm guessing because it is a C cup rather than the no letter cup of the 3.

The 2 1/2C is however not the most common choice on Bb (I presume that you are playing Bb trumpet) and is described in the Vincent Bach mouthpiece catalogue as:

21⁄2C Medium 16.40 mm Medium wide, lowered Large cup; brilliant, heroic, crisp C trumpet tone. For players
toward the outside. with strong, muscular lips.

Obviously you can play this mouthpiece on Bb, but the description suggests that it is designed more to be used on C.

If it works for you great, but if you are not fully decided upon the 2 1/2C, have you tried a 3C, which is a very popular choice?

The rim of the Bach 3C is admittedly not quite the same as of the Bach 3.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

x9ret · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:33 pm Post subject:

cheiden · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:44 pm Post subject:

The Bach 3B and 3 are very different than the 3C. I believe that both in addition to having progressively bigger cups also have more open backbores. I know a few folks that love and excel on the 3B, not sure I've met any who really prefer the 3 (except on flugelhorn). By contrast a fairly large number of players like and succeed on the 3C.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

x9ret · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject:

Thanks. For playing high lead parts, what would you change your 3C for? Or would 3C do the job fine usually.
_________________
https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong

cheiden · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:23 pm Post subject:

Until you get firmly established on a 3C it's nearly impossible to predict what else might facilitate lead playing for any particular player. Many use a similar rim and go tighter and/or shallower but how much of that works for you is anybody's guess. Reeves makes a line of pieces that a good number of 3C players seem to like for their more "commercial" setups.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

tptguy · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:57 am Post subject:

I'm strongly believe that mouthpiece size affects the muscles used. Or much more accurately, the muscles that aren't used. But it shouldn't be a matter of guesswork about what to move to next because the ears, good trumpet ears out front, will promptly identify when the most complete muscle groups are being used.

Having done clinics with hundreds of college music majors, I've found that the overwhelming majority are using Bach 1.5C. And, they are not playing in tune. Very few can play even a low C and middle C in tune with each other. In section, at best, these players have to use a great deal of extraneous/tiring lip movement in order to blend correctly. In my experience, a move to a well designed, properly balanced mouthpiece that fits the face immediately cures the intonation issues. And at the same time, it provides a much more focused, powerful, and rich sound. Rather than try the hit-and-miss approach, get a really good set of trumpet ears out front and I think you'll be amazed at the rapid progress you'll make. If asked, you can still tell everyone that you're on a 1.5 C. Best to all, Kyle

AJCarter · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:38 am Post subject:

DaveH · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861

x9ret · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:56 am Post subject:

OK. So now I've played 2 1/2C for two days in a row. I'm getting some new mouthpieces to try out in the next few days: Bach 3C and Schilke 14A4a.

Already on the 2 1/2C I'm finding that different muscles are feeling it and being used. The rim feels slightly too big so I'm hoping the 3C does the trick.

Someone commented, not sure if in this thread, that maybe playing a non-C cup such as a 3 would help to beef one's chops up for a 3C. I can tell from this experience of having played a Bach 3 heavily for 2 months, and years ago when I played Bb cornet and interchanged between Denis Wick 4 and 4B, that this doesn't really happen. I think that's because different muscles are being used and/or some muscles are used much more in a deeper cup, which aren't used so much in a shallower cup?
_________________
https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong

stanton · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:20 pm Post subject:

X9...

It is not just about size, but rim shape and how the mouthpiece allows (or restricts) air flow.

It may take some time but you have to find the rim that your chops work best with. I wouldn't pay attention to the size so much as how easily it lets your chops make a sound.

I personally like the shape of the Schilke M3 rims, but I (usually) do not play a Schilke M3 mouthpiece. I have a M3 rim on top of a Kanstul Mount Vernon 1.5C underpart and currently a #10 backbore (screw in). I use this rim solely because it is the one where I can get a basic buzz with the least amount of effort. The underpart and backbore are for the sound and blow.

I would suggest that you get your trumpet teacher to help you find what works best for you.

Good luck.
_________________
Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece

x9ret · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject:

I just tried the 3C and Schilke 14A4a and both work great with my chops. No fatigue or strain at all to get the notes I want.

_________________
https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong

AJCarter · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject:

x9ret · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject:

Thanks. Well now my embouchere feels tired but the muscles that are tired are not the same ones which get tired playing on the 3.
_________________
https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong

stanton · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:38 pm Post subject:

X9... I re-read your post. You said:
"So am trying to shake off those cheek muscles being used when I go high. No idea where that habit came from. When those muscles to the bottom right are struggling I've noticed that the cheek muscles try and work, almost like a fallback option. "

Personally, I think you're playing with fire if you want to be good. Shifts in your technique will at best make you inconsistent and at worst cause lasting problems. I'll leave it at that.

The 3C and 14A4A are totally different animals. The 3C may work for you. That's fine. Use it. Learn it. And don't push. the 14A4A is more of a specialty mouthpiece. Unless you're playing lead in a jazz band exclusively, IMO it's not a good choice at your level of development. It's not about power, but efficiency. Watch someone like Allan Vizzuttik. He plays high, low, everywhere on the horn and makes it look effortless. That's what you should be striving for right now. That effortlessness.

Who am I to tell you this? Someone who has torn an obicularis oris and lived thru Focal Dystonia. You don't want to go where I've been. EFFICIENCY and good sound are the route. Patience is the key.

Oh... and about the mouthpiece. Find the ONE you're going to play on. Take the others, put them in a jar, can, whatever. Fill it with water and store it in the freezer.

Good luck.
_________________
Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece

x9ret · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject:

Hi Stanton,
It sounds bad what you went through.
I'm sticking with 3C. The Schilke only for special occasions. Those muscle groups in cheek and bottom right are not being felt used at all using the 3C.
_________________
https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong

stanton · Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:28 am Post subject:

x9ret · Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:01 pm Post subject:

Thanks. Stanton, wow that is some story. I hope that never happens to me.

OK, so I've settled on the 3C quite nicely this week.

I've made the following observation.

I'm working on my endurance. However, a point comes when my range deteriorates. Notes high C and above become impure, messy sound and a struggle to get as I play more and more. Although the range up to high C is just fine. I think that's just fatigue. Earlier today at one point I touched a double C. So I think it's just fatigue up there.

This has happened the last few days. Next day I get up and play above high C no problem. Repeat. lol.

However, after doing all the worthwhile exercises, at the end of the day I like playing along to some tracks. It frustrates me that my range is diminishing. So I put my schilke in and that gives me say 15 minutes of fun where I get back that lost half octave range. But after 15 minutes then not even that mouthpiece helps anymore and I quit playing.

I was settling so nicely on 3C that I considered maybe I wasted my money on schilke. Now I'm thinking to always keep schilke in my pocket if I get a tough gig as it would be a life saver.

I don't quite understand why I get that bonus time with the shallower mouthpiece. Unless of course, slightly different muscles are being used which are more fresh and not used so much on the 3C?
_________________
https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong