Joined: 03 Jan 2013 Posts: 1032 Location: Travelers Rest, SC
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:03 am Post subject:
RandyTX wrote:
I don't believe for a moment that you have to use that ridiculous Wick rim profile in order to play challenging cornet parts or to have a particular sound.
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:30 am Post subject:
Hi
The main issue I have with Denis Wick mouthpieces, is their sizing. I find the DW4 and DW4B too small. I find the DW3B and DW3 a better fit, but a bit on the large side, and the Denis Wick 3 is a fairly big mouthpiece for front row cornet playing.
I have looked at the Denis Wick scans on the Kanstul comparator, and I always have a feeling that there is something wrong with the Wick 2 and 3 scans, as they both look to be about the same size, with the 2 maybe a fraction smaller.
As feels to me, the Denis Wick 4 appears to be smaller than a Bach 7C, owing to its rim contour, and the Denis Wick 2 and 3 scans look along the lines of a Bach 1 1/2C. Maybe this is just an issue with the comparator, but I have always felt that the DW3 and DW3B have a larger cup diameter than my larger variant Bach 3C, and I just wish that Denis Wick would make something in between the 4 and 3 size, maybe something with a quoted cup diameter of say 16.6 or 16.65mm, which would suit players who prefer a rim diameter a little larger than the DW4, but would prefer not to play a cup diameter as large as the DW3, or a mouthpiece with such a larger volume as the DW3 on the front row.
I have also wondered why Denis Wick does make a separate cornet range which scales the cup depths/volumes, like he does with the Tenor Horn mouthpieces, which become shallower as the cup diameter increases, so that the 5, 4, 3 and 2 all have the same cup volume, so that a front row cornet player could play a DW no letter cup in the 2 diameter if they prefer, without playing a mouthpiece more suited to the back row, unless you happen to be Richard Marshall or another really strong player, with probably a brighter natural sound, as I sound more like I am playing flugel, if I use a DW2.
Alternatively, I wonder why Denis Wick do not produce a model in between the no letter and B cup, like the Alliance "a". I suppose the Alliance "a" cup is the one to go for, if you are looking for something between the Wick no letter cup and B cup, but I'd still prefer a cup diameter between the Alliance 3 and 2, which are equivalent to a Denis Wick 4 and 3.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject:
Since you are located in Boston I would suggest you visit Trent Austin at Austin Custom Brass.
I have played DW for many years and had issues with the rims.
Been playing a ACB and they are extremely comfortable and better BBB sounding the a DW _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9347 Location: Heart of Dixie
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject:
With the crap music our brass band has been playing lately (here in the good ol' USA), I could play a Bach 10-1/2C and it would be ok. I mean, what's the prpoer "sound" for the theme from Bonanza?... _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
I recommend the Alliance mouthpieces as well..I play an Alliance RM1...which is like a BETTER Wick 2(no letter) with a much better rim. Dillon Music in New Jersey deals in them..and its where I purchased mine..but I would contact them to see what's in stock.
In talking with some British Brass friends..it seems that the new craze are the Alliance mouthpieces..especially the RM line(Richard Marshall). Followed by the Wick Heritage pieces.
Make sure you have a good horn as well. I know they say that the mouthpiece makes the biggest difference...but I went from playing a brass band owned Yamaha Xeno with a Wick Heritage 2B to purchasing my own Getzen 3850(Copper Bell) with the Alliance RM1 mouthpiece and it has made ALL the difference!
Like I said, I originally played a Bach 1 1/2C MP because that's what I played on for trumpet. It was cheap and I could execute consistently all of the demands for the solo cornet parts. Most everyone else in the band plays on Wick MP's mainly for their sound. After a few months, I finally gave in and switched to a 4BW. While I now match better with the section, I get tired much more quickly, especially when we are preparing/performing very demanding programs (And I don't think it's just a matter of me getting used to it because I've played on it for about 9 months now). It also becomes a challenge because I also have engagements where I play trumpet, and switching between the Wick and my Bach 1/2C on tpt is difficult for me. Ideally, I want to find something that gives me the consistency I had when playing the Bach 1/2C Cornet MP, the tone color of the Wick, and will also facilitate an easier change between playing trumpet and cornet. I know GR mouthpieces would be an option, but I wanted to explore to see if there is something that would be cheaper first.. Again, any input would be appreciated.[/quote] _________________ Allen
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:03 pm Post subject:
AznTrp87 wrote:
Appreciate everyone's input.
Like I said, I originally played a Bach 1 1/2C MP because that's what I played on for trumpet. It was cheap and I could execute consistently all of the demands for the solo cornet parts. Most everyone else in the band plays on Wick MP's mainly for their sound. After a few months, I finally gave in and switched to a 4BW. While I now match better with the section, I get tired much more quickly, especially when we are preparing/performing very demanding programs (And I don't think it's just a matter of me getting used to it because I've played on it for about 9 months now). It also becomes a challenge because I also have engagements where I play trumpet, and switching between the Wick and my Bach 1/2C on tpt is difficult for me. Ideally, I want to find something that gives me the consistency I had when playing the Bach 1/2C Cornet MP, the tone color of the Wick, and will also facilitate an easier change between playing trumpet and cornet. I know GR mouthpieces would be an option, but I wanted to explore to see if there is something that would be cheaper first.. Again, any input would be appreciated.
If you like a conventional Bach rim profile and don't want to spend a lot of money on a custom piece, a Curry BBC (stands for Brass Band Cornet btw) is worth a look. If you want to stay with the same rim size you could look at the 1.5BBC, although the 3BBC seems more commonly used.
It's not going to sound exactly like a Wick, but it's quite close.
Going from a 1.5 to a 3 is not a huge size difference (imo), but if you are more sensitive to size changes the 1.5 should feel very natural. I find it quite easy to go from a C cup on trumpet to the BBC on Cornet. No doubt largely because the rim is exactly the same as on my trumpet piece (and my flugel, and my picc).
What I've heard recently is he's so busy making pieces that the best way to get one is to order it through Osmun Music http://www.osmun.com -- a dealer of his, although they are also sold in other places.
Sparx is another option a lot of people use instead, but they cost a bit more.
I think the ultimate answer would be to have somebody put a Bach (or Curry) rim on a Wick, but that would probably run into a lot of money.
I do play a ACB 2A. Not for the fainthearted but great BBB sound.
Tried the ACB 3TF cup but found it way to bright.
Have a ACB 2B on it's way, will see soon how that plays and sounds.
I have tried the Alliance mpc, but I find the rim WAY to slim.
The ACB is 'fat' and feels like a lovely, supportive 'pillow'. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1070 Location: The Golden City of OZ
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:26 pm Post subject:
A view from a Down-Under BBBander.
I too really struggle with the Wick rim. You are right about the Bach 'pieces, they do not give the "right" sound for a Brass Band (unless of course you're playing Bonanza - I feel your pain Dale, we're doing a kids concert soon - the Smurfs Marching song, Louie Louie.....sigh).
I am a +1 for the Curry BBC range. The tone is not quite the same as a Wick, but it's very close, and the rim is much more comfortable if you're used to a Bach profile.
And to the doubters, Bob Stevenson is right - the top Brass Banders in the UK are indeed extreme players, and competition is fierce - if they thought using a pez dispenser as a mouthpiece would get them a point over the other bands, they'd do it! There are two amazing things about great BBB players. 1. Their technical ability. 2. Their ability to do what they do (in many cases) in spite of their equipment.
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:41 am Post subject:
Hi
I've always played in non contesting UK brass bands, and my experience has been that they no longer play that much traditional brass band repertoire.
My last band used Bach 184ML cornets with Bach C cup mouthpieces. Considering that we played a lot of big band repertoire, popular songs and show tunes, I never thought that the cornet/mouthpiece choice was that inappropriate.
My current band plays a lot of Movie theme selections and popular songs. We are doing a concert in November based on "Stars". My band pad at the moment includes the theme from Skyfall, a selection from Star Trek, Red Dwarf, a Glenn Miller selection and a cartoon selection, including the Flintstones and Simpsons.
A British Brass Band cornet set-up probably blends better with the middle and lower sections of the band, but for a lot of our current repertoire, my Bach 184ML/3C combination, which rather than overly bright and thin, sounds like a warmer version of my Bach 37/3C combination, would probably be better suited. Actually it blends fine anyhow with the rest of the section, which are on a variety of different cornets/mouthpieces, but I generally use my Yamaha set-up.
Contesting bands are probably very different, but I know one front row cornet player of a fairly high section contesting band, who plays on a Bach 1 1/2C on a Besson Sovereign.
Take Care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
When reading all of these answers and good suggestions, I come to following 2 conclusions :
- Find a combination cornet + mouthpiece that suits best in your particular situation considering the type of band your play in, the music you play and your own playing comfort.
- It might be wise to have several mouthpieces at hand you can use in different situations. I use for example :
GR 66.9 cup no 6 : When I need some real power and bit more trumpet like sound is in place
Curry BBC: My main piece. Nice full sound throughout register, easy to play.
DW RW3B: When I really have to ... for me personally only suited for low and mid register. Above the staff, my sound gets really thin and I get tuning issues.
Now I only need to find a new 2nd hand cornet I like to replace my good old Conn 80A _________________ Trumpet : Yamaha YTR-9335CHS + Yamaha YTR-6335H
Trumpet mouthpieces : Lotus 2L (main) + Lotus 2L2
Flugelhorn : Kanstul 1525 with Curry 1,5FL
Cornet : Conn 80a (1919) with Curry 1,5 BBC + Curry 1,5 VC + GR L66,9 #6
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:55 am Post subject:
Other options to Wick:
Schilke (make a V range now)
Yamaha (although rims are as flat as the Wick ones)
Yamaha Signature models (Pierre Dutot, King etc)
McCann (only one size)
Alliance
Warburton BBC range (bigger throats and shorter backbores than normal warburton)
Sparx
Trent Austin makes deep cornet mouthpieces which get good reports
Curry - VC and BBC ranges
Monette - FL cups
Bach - 5V (can be threaded to take a 1.5C rim)
I notice that Matt Frost is developing a cornet mouthpiece based on his rim and backbore system.
The Wick mouthpieces do work quite well and they can be quite forgiving if you don't have a lot of warm up time. However, they do not like a lot of pressure.
Stamina is really the issue with any brass band mouthpiece. If you want to stand up and play the odd solo then any of these will work, but to make it through several long rehearsals each week requires a lot of compromises. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Other options to Wick:
Schilke (make a V range now)
Yamaha (although rims are as flat as the Wick ones)
Yamaha Signature models (Pierre Dutot, King etc)
McCann (only one size)
Alliance
Warburton BBC range (bigger throats and shorter backbores than normal warburton)
Sparx
Trent Austin makes deep cornet mouthpieces which get good reports
Curry - VC and BBC ranges
Monette - FL cups
Bach - 5V (can be threaded to take a 1.5C rim)
Wouldn't it be great if a shop should exist where you could try out all of these next to each other? _________________ Trumpet : Yamaha YTR-9335CHS + Yamaha YTR-6335H
Trumpet mouthpieces : Lotus 2L (main) + Lotus 2L2
Flugelhorn : Kanstul 1525 with Curry 1,5FL
Cornet : Conn 80a (1919) with Curry 1,5 BBC + Curry 1,5 VC + GR L66,9 #6
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:07 am Post subject:
wiemelen wrote:
Quote:
Other options to Wick:
Schilke (make a V range now)
Yamaha (although rims are as flat as the Wick ones)
Yamaha Signature models (Pierre Dutot, King etc)
McCann (only one size)
Alliance
Warburton BBC range (bigger throats and shorter backbores than normal warburton)
Sparx
Trent Austin makes deep cornet mouthpieces which get good reports
Curry - VC and BBC ranges
Monette - FL cups
Bach - 5V (can be threaded to take a 1.5C rim)
Wouldn't it be great if a shop should exist where you could try out all of these next to each other?
That indeed would be great! _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:24 am Post subject:
wiemelen wrote:
When reading all of these answers and good suggestions, I come to following 2 conclusions :
- Find a combination cornet + mouthpiece that suits best in your particular situation considering the type of band your play in, the music you play and your own playing comfort.
Hi
I totally agree.
- It might be wise to have several mouthpieces at hand you can use in different situations.
Most probably, or an alternative cornet/mouthpiece set-up.
E.g. Sovereign cornet/Denis Wick mouthpiece for Brass Band
and I don't know, a less brass band oriented cornet (there are probably loads of suggestions, worthy of a thread in itself) with a shallower cornet mouthpiece (again there are probably loads of possibilities) for another kind of cornet playing, such as Trad Jazz.
When I was trying to sort out my Besson Sovereign cornet set-up, I took my Sovereign and a load of brass band orientated mouthpieces to my husband's small standards combo in which I play, and it didn't work at all. It was ok for the numbers on which I usually play flugel, but not really for the numbers on which I normally play trumpet. It just didn't give me the sound I'm after in this setting. Ditto for my Yamaha Xeno cornet set-up, which I also tried in this band, as I was doubling cornet and flugel in my brass band the next morning, and wanted to keep to a consistent set-up. My Bach 184ML/Bach 3C works however works fine, and is my concert band, and other non brass band cornet set-up of choice.
Take Care
Lou
Now I only need to find a new 2nd hand cornet I like to replace my good old Conn 80A
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Warburton BBC range (bigger throats and shorter backbores than normal warburton)
I like mine a lot (3BC and 5BC - BC8* backbore works nicely with both for me).
The Rims are far more comfortable (for me) than any Wick I've ever tried - the classic is just painful, the RW (webster) range they had for a while were a bit better, the Heritage's are likewise a little better - but none of them feel quite right.
Soundwise, I'd put the Warburton BC's somewhere between no-letter wicks and B-cup wicks (closer to the former) and a touch softer and more diffuse than my Sparx 3.
The throats are still a 27 drill (like warburtons standard tops and trumpet/long-cornet backbores), they're not really cross-compatible with any degree of success though (the BC's seem to have more of the throat section in the backbore piece and the trumpet tops have more throat in the top piece).
I'd take either of my Warburton's ahead of a Wick - the sound is close enough to blend with a section of wicks, but the rim and playability are superior (for me).
The Sparx (no letters) for me is a touch bright for blending with wicks, but it'd be a good soloist/principal choice.
I had the chance to try a Curry 3BBC briefly (though not with a band) - nice rim and played easily, but the sound was brighter still than the Sparx, I wouldn't consider it a Wick no-letter alternative. If you were playing in a section of mostly Wick-B's it'd word well, I'd think.
(As BB playing is the majority of my playing and always has been, I suspect my ideas of brightness and blending differ from those who play more trumpet - in general in the UK though, the darker and more diffuse cornet tones that a wick no-letter provides are seen as preferable - deep dislike of the Wick B's for lacking this is not uncommon here).
Joined: 29 Nov 2011 Posts: 56 Location: Memphis TN
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:47 pm Post subject:
When I started playing in a brass band I played front row stuff on my wick 2. When I made the switch to my GR pieces I ended up with a 67 with the #6 cup. When I made the switch I ended up with a much better BBB cornet sound. No matter what mouthpiece you use. It's what you have that gives you the sound you want and/or what fits in our ensembles. Over seas wick and alliance have presented themselves as the most popular options. Wick because of the tradition that comes with his pieces. _________________ XO Brass Artist
1604S LB Bb
1624RS-R C
1700S Piccolo
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