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Billy B
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Location: Des Moines
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 Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:45 am Post subject: |
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It may be so 70s, but the fact is a huge amount of discrimination still exists.
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homecookin
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Joined: 07 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Well that may be the way you see things, but that doesn't
mean that's the be all end all of everything.
I worked for years here in town with a band leader that used several female musicians most of which on saxophone, granted no female trumpet
players but they were not around, if there were I'm sure he would have used
them.
There is also a very fine female string bass player in town who runs in jazz session during the week and works all the time.
As far as discrimination is concerned, all anyone can do is make sure that you are responsible for your actions, the best way to fight discrimination of any kind, is
to make sure that we as individuals, choose not to discriminate.
One cannot control the rest of society. |
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Kimberly
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Joined: 27 Mar 2011
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Location: Hillside, IL
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| homecookin wrote: | | As far as discrimination is concerned, all anyone can do is make sure that you are responsible for your actions, the best way to fight discrimination of any kind, is to make sure that we as individuals, choose not to discriminate. One cannot control the rest of society. |
I'm sorry to disagree with you but if you gave that a second thought you wouldn't even agree with it. There are many things a person can do to fight discrimination beyond simply choosing not to discriminate themselves. One would just need to consider the history of any struggle for rights to find examples of people who wrote, spoke out, resisted, petitioned, organized, demonstrated and even died for the rights in question. One cannot control the rest of society but one can make an impact on it.
Kimberly |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8333
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| homecookin wrote: | | As far as discrimination is concerned, all anyone can do is make sure that you are responsible for your actions, the best way to fight discrimination of any kind, is to make sure that we as individuals, choose not to discriminate. One cannot control the rest of society. |
If everyone followed only these ideas, then nothing would have been accomplished in civil rights for the past 50-60 years. After all, many still choose to discriminate - even today. Unless people speak up, stand up, and make their voices heard then society has no reason to change.
It's all good to be responsible for yourself, but that's hardly sufficient for progress.
It's easy to dismiss or downplay discrimination if you haven't ever gotten any - in other words, if you're a white male. (as am I)
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homecookin
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Kimberly,
It is perfectly fine for you to disagree with me, not a problem at all.
Quite frankly I don't need to rethink anything.
And I certainly understand you and Crazy Finn's statements about societal evolution.
American society has certainly progressed since the 1950s and the appropriate and just laws have been passed.
But you cannot control what people think and feel in their hearts and have been taught since they were young.
If passing laws solved everything then there would be
no discrimination, but as Billy B pointed out
discrimination still exists.
Some people don't care what laws you pass, that's
why they commit murder.
And it is most assuredly not just the "white man"who is guilty of discrimination.
Back to the original point of this thread, I just do not believe that discrimination against female trumpet students is as big a problem OP suggests. |
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RandyTX
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 5299
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Female Trumpet Students |
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| swingintrpt wrote: | | 1. How do we encourage gender equality among young aspiring musicians? It's definitely true that most people conceive of brass, and trumpet in particular, as a "masculine instrument", so how do we change our approach as private teachers or band directors to counter this? |
I'm not sure there is any way a private teacher or band director can do anything on their own to change how "most people conceive of brass" as instruments primarily for males. I'm not even sure this premise is true.
In the late 70s, my main competition was from a female player (Kate, are you out there somewhere?) from another high school a few miles down the road. Nobody thought it was weird that she was playing trumpet back then, or any of a number of other women playing brass in music programs. We had a fabulous female trombone player who is a successful band director today and a really good euph as well. Sure, guys were more prominent in those sections, just like the girls were more likely to be found in flute, clarinet, sax, etc. In pretty much every case, we had both male and female players in them all.
In my son's high school band currently, there are a lot of young women in every section of the band. It's clearly more gender-neutral than it once was, and I doubt that's because some evil band director isn't holding them back any more. More likely, they have decided on their own that they want to play those instruments rather than worry about gender roles.
I'm not sure it's even important to have large numbers of females playing trumpet, bone, euph, tuba, etc. any more than I think it's important to have more males playing flute and oboe than currently do so. People will do what they want, regardless of social desires for equality in everything. The main issue is to not discriminate against them when they choose an instrument, regardless what they pick.
Similarly, people complain that there aren't enough females in computer engineering and programming jobs. Go look at the entering freshman majoring in those programs. There are barely any women attempting to enter those fields, at least on a percentage basis. The ones that do succeed in that field tend to be very good at it, I've worked with a number of them and they were outstanding.
If the companies I worked for had had a rule to hire 50% females to fill those jobs, we wouldn't have been able to find enough of them, frankly. You can't fix imbalance issues like that by being angst ridden. They have to be there with the appropriate skill sets, regardless what your hiring preferences might be.
| swingintrpt wrote: | | 2. On a broader view, what do we do to help our students get an idea of how the world works, and to get them thinking about what they can do to change what they feel is wrong with it and preserve what is right? |
That's not the role of a music teacher. It's something the parents and perhaps "social studies" teachers should be doing. What you can and should do in the role of music education is never tell someone that they can't or should not play a particular instrument because of their gender. You shouldn't push a female into trumpet so she can help balance the scales. Pushing students into something to fit a particular agenda is not a good thing, regardless of the worthiness of the idea behind it. |
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rich.Graiko
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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One cannot control the rest of society. That's right on. We can certainly have an impact on it though, and what I got from Homecookin's comment is that a really forward thinking practice is to start with what you can control, which is yourself.. And I would add that through leading by example, you can influence the people who you mentor, friends, family, your community, etc.
We need more mentors who practice what they preach in the world, god knows the lawmakers and politicians are not our saviors.
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homecookin
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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RandyTX...
I am quite sure that you are not the slightest bit interested,
and so be it.
But I agree with you 100 percent.
and it was very well stated, by the way. |
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RandyTX
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
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Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| homecookin wrote: | RandyTX...
I am quite sure that you are not the slightest bit interested,
and so be it.
But I agree with you 100 percent.
and it was very well stated, by the way. |
I'm not sure I understand why you think I wouldn't be interested in your opinion. Because we disagreed about something else in another thread in the past or something? That happens, and I don't hold grudges because someone disagrees with me about something.
Thanks. |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8333
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| homecookin wrote: | | American society has certainly progressed since the 1950s and the appropriate and just laws have been passed. |
Because people did more than just worry about their own actions. They tried to make society a more just place by influencing others.
| homecookin wrote: | | But you cannot control what people think and feel in their hearts and have been taught since they were young. |
See above. Your previous statement - about how "American society has certainly progressed since the 1950's" seems at odds with this statement.
Obviously, there will be people who firmly resist things, and certainly there is always more hope for future generation in such matters, but it's irresponsible to write off people with previous ideas as completely immune to outside influences and new perspectives. If that were the case, progress in ANY area would be extremely slow. No one over the age of 25 would use a smartphone. No one over the age of 50 would use the internet. VCRs and VHS would still be common and only young people would have LCD and plasma TVs and Blu ray players.
| homecookin wrote: | | If passing laws solved everything then there would be no discrimination, but as Billy B pointed out discrimination still exists. |
No one is suggesting otherwise.
| homecookin wrote: | | Back to the original point of this thread, I just do not believe that discrimination against female trumpet students is as big a problem OP suggests. |
I have no idea, as I'm not a female trumpeter. Since you also are not, you can't do more than speculate, either. I know as a band director of young students, that I often have a majority of female trumpeters. I certainly don't discriminate. I doubt that there is any sort of gender stigma with instruments at that age - at least anymore. Also of note is that I had a decent number of male flutists - although most of them didn't practice much.
Whether that kind of environment that continues into High School and College, I can't say.
| RandyTX wrote: | | What you can and should do in the role of music education is never tell someone that they can't or should not play a particular instrument because of their gender. You shouldn't push a female into trumpet so she can help balance the scales. Pushing students into something to fit a particular agenda is not a good thing, regardless of the worthiness of the idea behind it. |
That's pretty much how I look at it. Couldn't have said it better, myself.
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JoshMizruchi
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Location: Newark, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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One day, one of my female trumpet students asked me, "Josh, is it OK that I'm a girl and I play the trumpet?" I said, "Of course it's OK! Why wouldn't it be OK for a girl to play the trumpet?" And she said, "I feel like I'm not supposed to because I'm a girl."
I told her that one thing I've learned in life is that you should never avoid pursuing your goals because of your gender, race or financial situation. If people have issues with your gender when you play, that's their problem.
Probably some of the best advice I've given thus far.
-Josh
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spitvalve
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Joined: 11 Mar 2002
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Location: Little Elm, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Two of my best-ever students were girls. After teaching one of them about resonance and air flow, she took it to heart. A few weeks later her marching band director came to me and said "You've created a monster. She's out-blowing the whole band."
The other played lead in the high school jazz band I directed--as a sophomore, she beat out three senior boys for the position. She could swing like crazy, had a high G to die for, and she could do it without putting a dent in her lips.
Trumpet does not require brute strength. I think little Natalie Dungy has proven that.
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Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
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1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
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crzytptman
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Location: Escondido California
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Do you keep in touch with Natalie? What is she doing now?
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spitvalve
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Joined: 11 Mar 2002
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Location: Little Elm, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | Do you keep in touch with Natalie? What is she doing now? |
Never met the kid, but there's a video somewhere on the web of her tearing it up on the Arutunian when she was like ten years old. There are a few more videos of her playing on YouTube, one where she nails a double B.
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Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'm confused. Didn't you just tell a story about her being in your high school jazz band?
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Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
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spitvalve
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Location: Little Elm, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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It's been nearly thirty years since I directed that HS jazz band.
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Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8333
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | I'm confused. Didn't you just tell a story about her being in your high school jazz band? |
I think the last paragraph sentence is just a general comment that mentions Ms. Dungy, and isn't directly tied to the previous two paragraphs.
That's how I read it.
She's pretty great, but I've only heard her play via YouTube. I think I saw her at ITG a couple of years ago, taking it in.
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MFaddicted
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:01 pm Post subject: GIRLS PLAY FLUTE |
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Girls play flute.
Boys play trumpet.
....End of story, or??? |
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Crazy Finn
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: GIRLS PLAY FLUTE |
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| MFaddicted wrote: | Girls play flute.
Boys play trumpet.
....End of story, or??? |
Not in my school bands.
Have you seen a school band in the last decade? Seriously?
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Female Trumpet Students |
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| ProAm wrote: |
"The High Court ruled that not everyone should be forced to identify as a man or woman when dealing with officials, saying some people could legitimately describe themselves as gender neutral.
"The High Court... recognises that a person may be neither male nor female, and so permits the registration of a person's sex as 'non‑specific'," it said in a unanimous judgement."" |
Apparently SNL's "it's Pat" has been watched entirely too much down under ... |
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