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brassbow
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 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:03 am Post subject: classical cornet |
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Does anyone know of a cornetist playing standard "classical". Also for discussion, I feel renaissance/baroque literature should be played on cornet. Because the music was written for cornetto which is CONICAL. Thoughts?
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Cornetto and cornet are entirely different instruments, but if you prefer to substitute - do it. |
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p76
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure what sort of literature you're talking about - renaissance and baroque literature should be played on a natural trumpet surely, as that's what it was written for (vide. Brandenburg 2) - not a cornet sound at all.
As for classical - unless you're stealing a concerto from another instrument (which has been done), there ain't much there. Some of the change-over stuff might go well on cornet though. Brass Bands have often played well known classical pieces, with the cornets playing the role of the violins.
etc-etc is correct, a cornetto has very little to do with any cornet/trumpet as we know it now.
There's lots of later good stuff for cornet that'll get your chops working!
Cheers,
Roger
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brassbow
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:51 am Post subject: |
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I got into a discussion with a former teacher. I made the full time transition to cornet and wanted to cover trumpet parts. I was told this would never fly with the musical community as trumpet was considered the norm. My arguement was a cornet as well as cornetto were conical. Personally I find trumpet to strident of an instrument. Also consider the Eb cornet is a half step above most treble cornettos ( in d)
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AJCarter
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| brassbow wrote: | | I got into a discussion with a former teacher. I made the full time transition to cornet and wanted to cover trumpet parts. I was told this would never fly with the musical community as trumpet was considered the norm. My arguement was a cornet as well as cornetto were conical. Personally I find trumpet to strident of an instrument. Also consider the Eb cornet is a half step above most treble cornettos ( in d) |
Cornetto is not a cornet. Have you ever heard and or played an actual cornetto yourself? IN person? Not youtube.. The sound concept is WAY different. Sounds nothing like a cornet. And yes, parts that are written specifically for trumpet in mind (as most composers will do, that is specify desired instrument)
It's like using saxophone for a shawm. just ain't done, son.
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brassbow
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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True a cornetto has a very unique sound. My point that I may have made unclear before, was when playing renaissance / baroque that a cornet not a trumpet is the better choice. IMHO the trumpet is to bright. Baroque trumpet was diatonic. Much literature of the period really explores key changes and chromaticism.
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oxleyk
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| brassbow wrote: | | True a cornetto has a very unique sound. My point that I may have made unclear before, was when playing renaissance / baroque that a cornet not a trumpet is the better choice. IMHO the trumpet is to bright. Baroque trumpet was diatonic. Much literature of the period really explores key changes and chromaticism. |
But listen to renaissance and baroque groups that use period instruments. They use trumpets.
What key changes? That didn't happen until all instruments could be played chromatically. This didn't happen with trumpets or cornets until the early 19th century. |
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Jon Kaplan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| p76 wrote: | | Not sure what sort of literature you're talking about - renaissance and baroque literature should be played on a natural trumpet surely, as that's what it was written for (vide. Brandenburg 2) - not a cornet sound at all. |
p76 has got it right... natural trumpet and cornet do not sound similar at all. Baroque music was written for the natural trumpet, which is almost entirely NOT conical. A modern day trumpet is as close as you will get to replicating the sound of those instruments without actually playing a natural trumpet (which many people also do).
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trumpet_cop
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| brassbow wrote: | | Much literature of the period really explores key changes and chromaticism. |
Where the hell do you go to school that told you that? If your teachers told you this at school, I would demand my money back. you are grossly misinformed, and just plain wrong. Baroque trumpets can be quite crass and bright due to their nature. are they as compact and direct as today's horns? no. But they definitely are not a refined and elegant as you're claiming them to be.
FWIW, Cornetto (or cornett, which is probably why you're confused) was in the renaissance period.. NOT baroque. Seriously.. get your money back man. You've been hosed big time. |
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cheiden
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's also worth reading Robb Sterwart's essay where he assess the relatively small difference in conical/cylindrical construction of the cornet vs trumpet.
http://www.robbstewart.com/Essays/TrumpetSchmumpet.html
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | I think it's also worth reading Robb Sterwart's essay where he assess the relatively small difference in conical/cylindrical construction of the cornet vs trumpet... |
Or not. He needs to rethink his comparison based on better examples of modern short cornets.
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ghelbig
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet_cop wrote: | | brassbow wrote: | | Much literature of the period really explores key changes and chromaticism. |
Where the hell do you go to school that told you that? If your teachers told you this at school, I would demand my money back. |
May be one of those wall-charts showing the evolution of the trumpet would be appropriate? It would point out when the cornet was developed - and what existed in that musical era.
I played an orchestral piece ~1700's where I could have taped the valves down for the entire piece. Actually, I should have - those fingers were real stiff by the end of the piece.
If I'm playing stuff from the early 1900's I'll decide cornet/trumpet on a chart by chart basis - or rather I'll let the music director choose. Most of the stuff from the mid 1900's on I use a trumpet unless cornet or flugelhorn is specified.
$.02,
Gary. |
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brassbow
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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The cornetto(zink) was used by Bach as a substitute for violin. The zink was used as late as early 18th c. Maurice Andre redefined trumpet literature for baroque music. Now the way this discussion has gone, it just proves that thee is a bias towards trumpets considering renaissance/baroque music. Now for me I will still prefer cornet over trumpet.
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p76
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| brassbow wrote: | | The cornetto(zink) was used by Bach as a substitute for violin. The zink was used as late as early 18th c. Maurice Andre redefined trumpet literature for baroque music. Now the way this discussion has gone, it just proves that thee is a bias towards trumpets considering renaissance/baroque music. Now for me I will still prefer cornet over trumpet. |
?????
As has been expressed here, the cornetto, or cornett, or zink, bears little or no relationship to any brass instrument, either then or now, apart from the fact that the standing wave is produced by vibrating the lips. The sound and tone colour from a cornetto is nothing like any modern (or old) brass instrument, trumpet or cornet.
The brass literature from that period should be played on a natural trumpet, of which the modern equivalent would liklier be a trumpet than a cornet. If you are translating some other music for a modern brass instrument, then I guess you can pick what you want!
Cheers,
Roger
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GordonH
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:29 am Post subject: |
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The difference between a modern cornet and a modern trumpet is really the technique and the mouthpiece.
Trumpets like the Wild Thing or the Schilke B7 are as cornet like as many instruments sold as Cornets.
I saw a university dissertation where someone did blind testing of someone playing a cornet, a trumpet and a trumpet with a cornet mouthpiece. The only people who could tell the difference were other trumpet or cornet players. The general public did not know or could not tell the difference.
I know this is bad news, but that's the way it appears to be.
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delano
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Unforunately Brassbow will not be convinced. |
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Rapier232
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:20 am Post subject: |
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Not sure about that Gordon. My Wild Thing trumpet sounds nothing like any cornet I've ever played.
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GordonH
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Rapier232 wrote: | | Not sure about that Gordon. My Wild Thing trumpet sounds nothing like any cornet I've ever played. |
Mine did if I put in a cornet mouthpiece via an adapter.
Bell flare very similar to the larger cornets.
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ghelbig
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | Unfortunately brassbow will not be convinced. |
My ex was like that - when she said "What are your thoughts?" what she really meant was "Agree with me or sleep on the couch."
I did a little digging on the subject. It seems that the preferred substitute for cornett/zink - the one that should sound most like the composer's intent - would be either "human voice" or "violin".
Gary. |
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trumpet_cop
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| brassbow wrote: | | The cornetto(zink) was used by Bach as a substitute for violin. The zink was used as late as early 18th c. |
| Brassbow, who seems to know nothing of music history wrote: | | Now the way this discussion has gone, it just proves that there is a bias towards trumpets considering renaissance/baroque music. Now for me I will still prefer cornet over trumpet. |
There's a reason there is a bias. it's because it's right. You cannot change fact. Plus, if you're so convinced in your ideas, I'd love to see some facts and articles that back up your theories as to how cornett and the modern cornet are related (other than by buzzing lips). You prefer cornet over trumpet. Cool. I prefer Glenfiddich to Jim Beam. Both are in the same family, but they are two totally different things. Sadly though, One has become more of a niche instrument. I think it's time to call Doc Brown, hop in the Delorean and travel back to 1905, where any of your thoughts on this subject could be possibly right.
below are a couple of selections to help you get started on the right track.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Trumpet-Edward-Tarr/dp/0931340136/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408748255&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Trumpet+Ed+tarr
And seeing as how the Burkholder, Grout and Palisca book may be a bit above your reading level, I suggest this:
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Music-History/dp/1592577512/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408748281&sr=1-1&keywords=music+history |
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