Mouthpieces

[crzytptman]

Can anyone here (Mohan, Purtle, homebilly et al) explain what Mr. Gordon wrote on pages 34-35 of BPINHTDB, and compare to the observation that one rarely sees any professional trumpet player using the mpc he describes as optimal, and in contrast one can find many professional lead/commercial players using the mpc he describes as detrimental?

I am sincerely interested in your thoughts.


Thank you
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

[crzytptman]

Can you help a brother out?

I'm not trying to start an argument. What he says makes sense. That's why I'm asking in the dedicated forum. Any insight?
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

[Jeff_Purtle]

Those comments should make more sense in context of the entire book. Notice that it's at the very end of the book and very brief. How you think about equipment is tied to how you think about playing.

I just re-read pages 34-35 and think you might be missing something. The "great players" Claude refers to are old cornet soloists like Clarke and Levy and others before 1935 when mouthpiece making changed.

He does say that his experience was that often problems in professionals are traced back to tight equipment and changing equipment, which confuses everything.

Don't miss the main point about the effect of tight equipment and changing equipment. It's the Seven Items that make it all work and not the equipment.

Jeff
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Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle

[crzytptman]

Jeff, thank you. I have read the book many times, and I think I get the context. I have listened to your tracks on your site, and you certainly have great range and sizzle up high. You do not sound like a cornet. I guess I'm just wondering if the comparison is as valid today as when Mr. Gordon wrote it, or has trumpet playing and instrument design progressed(?) such to make the comparison less or invalid?

Playing all over the horn up to high G with good sound and ease seems valid to me. A specialist may have to compromise. Thoughts?

I am currently working with a 7th grade student who just got braces. I recommended a mpc change from 7C (Kanstul, in their 700 trumpet) to a CGP. It was immediately more comfortable. My thought process is to encourage more pucker in the embouchure to counter the braces. Of course, range dropped to top line F . . . we are concentrating on tone, flexibility and fingers. I know the range will come back and more. I encourage the student to be the best 2nd or 3rd part player, and make the section sound good with that big tone.

I appreciate your input.
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

[John Mohan]

Nate, it sure sounds like you are doing a good service for your student with braces!

Concerning what Claude wrote, I agree with what he wrote, though I do not play on a CG Personal (the mouthpiece that is the perfect illustration of what Claude thought a correct mouthpiece is). In my professional experience, the best-of-the-best of the professional players I've worked with who could play all styles of music to a professional level tended to play on medium to fairly large diameter mouthpieces with normal to large throats and normal to large size backbores. I'm reminded of my friend Andras Verpeleti in Germany, who plays everything - including Big Band - on a copy of a Bach Mt Vernon 1. He's a fantastic player and now has a contract with EMI Music Germany (under the name "Andras de Laszlo").

And on the other end of the spectrum, I've witnessed many very well known players who while known for their extreme upper registers on very tight, small equipment, sound pretty amateur and rough when playing normal music in normal registers on that equipment. There are certainly exceptions, but by and large, I think that most players who try to play on tight, restrictive mouthpieces shoot themselves in the foot for 98% of the music and notes in order to get a few slightly-easier high notes.

I do not "stick with one mouthpiece always" as Claude would direct. I could, but then I wouldn't be able to be as versatile as I've been. But none of the mouthpieces I use could be considered tight or restrictive. My Reeves 43C is just about the same size as a CG3 (but with a rim that I like, and a backbore and cup shape that somehow must make it sound prettier when I play it than a CG3 does). My Reeves 43B is very similar in size to a CG Personal, complete with its #22 Throat and large Reeves #3 backbore. Honestly, if I was ever restricted to one and only one mouthpiece for everything, I would choose my 43B. My big Orchestral mouthpieces (Bach 1X, 1B and 1-1/4C cups with 1X rims in screw rim setups) would certainly be approved by Claude. And I don't think Claude would complain about my copy of Arturo's Mt Vernon 3C with its #24 throat. My smallest mouthpiece (a Reeves 43M) might ellicit a few grumbles from Claude - but it's huge compared to the typical small, tight, shallow mouthpiece.

As we all know, Claude played for a living at a time that was quite different from what we have now. The range of music and styles of music and the range we have to typically play in on a 1st book has expanded. As Bob O'Donnell said, if Claude had continued playing in the Studios through the '70's, his opinion regarding mouthpieces might have changed.

I've noticed that a lot of the major players in the commercial world have now moved from the radically small, tight mouthpieces they played on during their younger years to medium sized equipment, usually a 3C or something around the size of a 3C. And correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the greatest lead players around, Rick Baptist, plays on a mouthpiece with a Bach 1-1/2C rim.

One last anecdote I'm going to share:

Back in 1999 when I was playing 1st trumpet for "Cats" I normally played the show on my custom Marcinkiewicz mouthpiece that was a slightly shallower version of a Bach 1-1/2C. But as I used to do from time to time over the years, I went through a stage where I tried to use Claude's CG Personal (each time I did this, I loved the sound but hated the feel of the skeletal cornet-style rim on my face and I tended to have troubles with air-attacks on softer notes with it - the rim is just not for me). Anyways, I started practicing on it and one night I played the show on it. After the show I walked out of the theater with the Assistant Musical Director who had conducted the show that night. I did the cardinal sin and I actually told him I was using different equipment that night and I asked him how I sounded. He responded, "John, that reminds me, I wanted to compliment you - your sound was really big tonight."

Something to think about...

Cheers,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[John Mohan]

Afterthought:

I want to make it clear, that while I think it's okay for a developed professional level player to use slightly different mouthpieces in different situations, I think it's best for a developing player to play one and only one (sensible) mouthpiece for everything (with the exception of Flügelhorn or possibly Piccolo Trumpet). Otherwise consistency is reduced or lost, and progress is slowed, or halted, or even reversed.

[Jeff_Purtle]

I remember Claude saying how one student claimed he would have more endurance with smaller equipment. Claude asked the student to play through one of the four page études toward the end of St. Jacome. The student got the point that the tighter equipment did in fact hinder endurance in that situation.

I think what gets lost in some of the equipment discussion is the ability of the player to actually change the sound without changing the equipment. Mannie Klein was a master at that. Arturo also demonstrates that at clinics from time to time.

I'm having Arturo out to Anderson University (SC) this coming Friday, March 20, 2015 and that's one of the things I hope to have him demonstrate.

Some of that comes later with more subtle changes with the air and tongue and other things. It starts in your mind and your imagination of the sound you want.

Jeff
_________________
Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle

[John Mohan]

To add to what Jeff wrote, I have found that the ability to personally shape the sound diminishes or even disappears with smaller, more restrictive equipment. I can vary the sound much more on my Mt Vernon 3C or my 43B or even my 43C than I ever could on a 43S or 42S, or heaven forbid, something even smaller and more restrictive. And though its rim shape doesn't agree with me, I can take a CG Personal and make it work for the Haydn Trumpet Concerto, and conversely, work for the Big Band type shout choruses in "Cats".

Also, regarding endurance on smaller equipment, one of the main reasons I have found that going smaller than a Reeves 43 rim doesn't work for me, is because when I play through stuff like Irons Flexibilities on something like a Reeves 42C or 42M or 43S, my face muscles start feeling fatigued half-way to where I usually play in the book. I think what is happening is my face muscles are having to work harder to get my lips to not protrude to where they naturally want to in the mouthpiece. It's kind of like wearing a pair of shoes that are a size too small. In addition, I've always found that tighter equipment wears me out quicker because I've got to blow harder to get the air through. I do also find that if I use something with not enough resistance, I get worn out in a different way - it feels like I can't fill the thing up. Everybody should try to find their happy medium in terms of how much resistance they need. I think that of the players who are playing on the wrong size equipment, the majority of them are playing on equipment that is too small and tight.

[John Mohan]

[EricV]

That sounds cool, I will probably be in Canada visiting my daughter and grand kids for easter which is first week of April , I should try and get there as well and squeeze in some in person lessons with Jeff!!

Gotta make this work....
Eric
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CG Benge trumpet
Yamaha Xeno Cornet

[crzytptman]

You guys are really cool. Thanks for your perspectives.
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)