Intro to the Pivot System

[trptdoc]

Chris:

Thanks for your input. I have always had a huge sound up to F above high C and really big pedals. Since reading your message I recognize my type IIIB may be limiting the size of the altissimo. I play lead in 2 Big Bands and was really aware of your advice on the 2 jobs we did last weekend. Maynard talks about a "F block" that seems to be the limit for some players ie: Ray Wetsel in the Charlie Barnett band with Maynard. Do you think the IIIB situation is related to this? What would Reinhardt advise to open up the register above hi G for a IIIB-- I hope some of this info will be in the books I ordered from Dave Sheetz????

Thanks for your thoughts

Larry
_________________
"Big Breath Chest Up", "Hit 'Em Hard and Wish "Em Well", " Take It Farther than I Did"

[Mr.Hollywood]

First off playing pedals of any kind goes directly against everything Reinhardt ever taught. Stopping those pedals as soon as possible would be a smart move. Search this forum for the many reasons why Reinhardt thought pedals where so destructive.

As far as topping out at high F.......Reinhardt used to call it the "Eb trumpeter syndrome", where a fellow would top off at high Eb. This is almost always caused by playing with way too big, fat and broad of a sound in the middle and low registers.

The answer to your question is a definate NO, I don't think its a "IIIB thing".

Maynard was a IIIB and so was Chase. Amognst the "living" IIIB's we have Lyn Nicholson, Brian McDonald, Don Junker and myself who all prove otherwise.

My advice to you is to stop the pedals right away and learn to use "lip compression" to play your high register. I think getting to know Dave Sheetz and all he has to say is a big step in the right direction.

All the best,

Chris

[MathBrass]

Chris,

When you get to a gig and the music calls for loud playing in the middle to low range, does this affect your range at the gig? Is this an issue that IIIB's need to deal with? I guess you practice softly and then "make good" on the music.

I am a IIIB and I remember Dr. Reinhardt having me play a scale from middle C to high C, with a crescendo. After a couple of attempts ( I was playing my middle C too loudly, which to me was very soft compared to the volume that I was used to playing) he said," Start as soft as you can," I could barely hear what he was saying, then he said, "and GET LOUDER AS YOU ASCEND." That's a paraphrase, but I remember that he almost knocked me out of me seat when he shouted. I started as softly as I could and then got louder and out came the best high C I ever heard from my trumpet.

After reading your post I remembered that lesson. So, I'll get back to playing softly in the middle to low register.

Neil

[airdyn]

[trptdoc]

I have had all the books for 2 weeks and have the following wonderments. I have always felt that my "down pivot" occurred when my pucker gave in or got tired. I have worked to keep the chops strong enough that I rarely felt the "pivot". Is this correct? I have quit the pedals and replaced them with the C-F# Clark#1 like chromatic. I always felt that the pedals helped keep my embrochure on my upper lip but this chromatic seems to do the same thing. Using the Gordon's "down and up routines I have always been able to get to a good high Bb(below DHC). I use a Vizzuti mpc drilled to a #24 and with a little deeper V in it. I have found that I swell into the shallower mouthpieces and endurance is much less(on the job). Do IIIb's usually do better with a little deeper v'd cup? My "cupid's bow" is significant. My horn angle is minimal.

Thanks for your input

Larry

[DaveWing530]

sorry if this is offtopic, but does anybody know where i can get the Pivot System Encyclopedia? I'm not even sure if its still in print i have tried to find out for quit some ti me now, but i figured you guys might know. If I cant find that book, then any recommendations on a book I can get for a IIIB type? Thank you!

[PivotBone]

http://www.airstreamdynamics.com/asd_products.htm

[LeeC]

Pivotbone:

Check your P/Messages.

[razeontherock]

[trptdoc]

razeontherock:

I've never liked the sound of the CG mpc but have modified a Vizzuti mpc with a v'd cup that works. It has more of a lead sound and endurance doesn't suffer. Periodically I try to go to something shallower and always come back to to my modified Vizzuti. Bobby Shew thought I'd adjust to the smaller mpcs but it hasen't happended yet. I'm always open to new possibilities.

I'm pretty sure Claude was a lllB, thus his emphasis on high mpc placement and the deep v. His "cupids" bow was a permanent scar.

Larry

[healey.cj]

...

[iambrassman]

I printed this very informative article a long time ago, and refer to it often. I don't fully understand the Reinhardt stuff, so visit often without posting.

From the post Chris just put up, it raises a question for me about the 'natural' pivot verses trying to 'set a perceived embouchure', and a prior post about someone who moved their placement back closer to their natural inclination.

I understand Reinhardt sought to identify natural playing styles and work with the strengths of those styles, and mitigate those weaknesses, without causing a lot of confusion. Some of that is defined my mouthpiece placement and natural angle of the horn (caused by natural jaw placement, etc.). Myself and at least one other player I know were very strong players prior to any formal embouchure training, and both of us were able to slide the mouthpiece up and down during play as needed and naturally changed our angle of horn during play (slippery embouchure setting, very wet).

The embouchure system I studied embraces this, but doesn't explain it in such a way that most can understand it (I've studied it for years, and only partially understand it).

I see in the description those trumpet players who are a natural type III, but in the extreme register match the IIIA. Every time I study this, I keep believing my playing matches the type I, but shares many descriptors of the IIIA in the upper register. Can this be the case?

A statement in the description I keep getting hung up on is that a natural III can struggle in the upper register, and slides to the IIIA or IIIB. My jaw is in natural resting front teeth on front teeth -- and a natural horn angle straight forward with mpc 2/3 top lip 1/3 bottom, but as I ascend over F over high C my playing seems to match the IIIA description.

Now, tied back to Chris' post... if I feel I am getting tired, if I will play a few padal tones then restart I find I am not tired at all, rather that I have moved out of my natural position, then I can simply start again.

Thoughts?
_________________
Jim "IAmBrassman" Utley
Callet Jazz 0.470" /
Greg Black made John Blount Personal Mpc

[Doug Elliott]

This post of mine was in another topic, but I think it's important to be here in this one too:

Doug Elliott wrote:
iambrassman, you can't seriously study Reinhardt's methods while thinking that you can somehow combine it with approaches like Calllet, TCE, BE, or while practicing pedals,or being a "mouthpiece of the day" type of player as your signature says.

There may be some similarities here and there, but none of them are compatible with the rules of the Pivot System, such as playing only one embouchure type (and knowing what that means). None of the other "systems" consider the different types at all. Lots of things work temporarily. Reinhardt taught what will work for the rest of your life, and for the full range of the horn.

A good start would be to pick just one mouthpiece, and stop playing pedals. Then you can learn about IIIA if that is indeed your type, and learn to play that way from low F# to DHC.

No amount of describing what you do and getting random advice here will replace actual lessons with someone who truly understands the Pivot System.

PivotBone wrote:
Doug, I think this is great advice for anyone who comes to this forum and doesn't understand what we are talking about. Reinhardt's teachings are SO unlike what anyone else teaches that the advice you get here won't always be interchangeable with what others are doing. There is a lot more to his teachings than simply adding an exercise to the routine you're already doing. I believe that anyone looking to get the real benifits of Reinhardt's teachings needs to see someone well-versed in Reinhardt's teachings.

rich

[43bachH]

as a sorta disciple of the pivot system..my first teacher was a bone player who studied with him in the 1930's ( i saw the signed picture) I realized like 20years ago that the whole pivot thing is exaggerated but I still do it just now without overdoing and naturally. I think that was the orignal intention of the system...any thoughts
_________________
GK

[healey.cj]

...

[bkonstans1]

That is a great article. Absolutely great. thanks so much for posting this sticky.
_________________
Bennett Konstans
University of Illinois, Chicago Brass Band, Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps

Bach Strad Bb, Yamaha Xeno C, Yamaha Cornet, Couesnon Flugelhorn. GR Mouthpieces

[mcgovnor]

The more I look at Reinhardt material, and especially the more I consider the players who were his students I've known over the years, the more I think it must have been a lot of fun (as well as rewarding)
to study with him.
Very cool, very interesting, and helpful.

[jathja]

Is this article still available? I can't find it via the link, but am very interested in reading it.

[BeboppinFool]

It would appear that Dave Wilken is no longer associated with that trombone forum. I did a search in the Reinhardt Forum for posts by Wilktone but couldn't find one that has the contents of that article in it. You might want to PM Dave Wilken (wilktone) and see if he can send it to you privately.

Now that you have pointed that out, this thread no longer needs to be a "sticky" so I'll undo that.
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

[razeontherock]

Mr Wilken (My Mom's maiden name!) the article in your OP is not at that link. Not surprising after s many years. Can you re-post that here somewhere?