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trumpetplanet
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 Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | ...you put your lips in a mpc and blow air and the trumpet responds due to the physics of the tube resonance. |
No. This is not how the Superchops approach works and I am pretty confident that you already know that.
In the Superchops method we produce the sound but means of a spit-buzz. What you are putting into the instrument is primarily vibration, albeit with a little, tiny, insy-winsy bit of air.
And by the way, this is what I meant by "strikes again". Please refrain from this "playing dumb" thing that you do and disrupting our conversations. If you wish to add to the actual subject of this thread then please do.
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UK-based professional trumpeter.
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veery715
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| trumpetplanet wrote: | | crzytptman wrote: | | ...you put your lips in a mpc and blow air and the trumpet responds due to the physics of the tube resonance. |
No. This is not how the Superchops approach works and I am pretty confident that you already know that.
In the Superchops method we produce the sound but means of a spit-buzz. What you are putting into the instrument is primarily vibration, albeit with a little, tiny, insy-winsy bit of air.
And by the way, this is what I meant by "strikes again". Please refrain from this "playing dumb" thing that you do and disrupting our conversations. If you wish to add to the actual subject of this thread then please do. |
Oh, come on, now! If you don't blow air you get no sound. While there may be some technical variation to what happens in SC/TCE, the same principal underlies it. You have not reinvented the laws of the universe.
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trumpetplanet
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:03 am Post subject: |
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This is one of those things where it all ends up being about words and people get muddled or upset because someone uses one word that contradicts their understanding but essentially the way that I would represent the idea is like this:
1) a) Many methods/teachers put a lot of emphasis on deep breathing and blowing hard as a means to developing strength as a trumpet player. The Superchops method does not.
b) With Superchops blowing more air is a bad thing; less air is better.
2) I have met a lot of people who genuinely believe that when you blow a note on the trumpet all of your air travels the whole length of the instrument as you do it. There is no way that this is true; it is the vibrations that travel, not the air.
3) In it's simplest form this embouchure technique is about being efficient. I was never denying the laws of physics, but I do believe that most people have never even thought about them either.
Where I come from the definition of brass technique is "put tube on t' face an' blow". Which, in my opinion, is bad advice.
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veery715
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| trumpetplanet wrote: | This is one of those things where it all ends up being about words and people get muddled or upset because someone uses one word that contradicts their understanding but essentially the way that I would represent the idea is like this:
1) a) Many methods/teachers put a lot of emphasis on deep breathing and blowing hard as a means to developing strength as a trumpet player. The Superchops method does not.
b) With Superchops blowing more air is a bad thing; less air is better.
2) I have met a lot of people who genuinely believe that when you blow a note on the trumpet all of your air travels the whole length of the instrument as you do it. There is no way that this is true; it is the vibrations that travel, not the air.
3) In it's simplest form this embouchure technique is about being efficient. I was never denying the laws of physics, but I do believe that most people have never even thought about them either.
Where I come from the definition of brass technique is "put tube on t' face an' blow". Which, in my opinion, is bad advice. |
Very few schools of thought advocate blowing hard. An efficient use of air is common to almost every approach. Learn to play softly with good tone and intonation - that is what most teach.
HL Clarke did say to Claude Gordon to "put some air though that thing" (parapharased?), but ultimately what he was talking about was support, not air flow.
This is not so much about words as about the similarity between what you believe works and other "systems."
There are exceptions: Doc Severinsen does push a lot of air. But, IMO, he is an exception. If you watch Balsam or Helseth or Martin or Hooten, you will be left with the impression that they are NOT blowing a ton of air.
Sound moves through the air by excitation of air molecules. It works essentially the same way after it exits the bell as inside the horn. You SC/TCE folks may do something different inside your mouth, but once you add the horn everything from your face outward is the same.
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trumpetplanet
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your balanced argument. I agree with most of what you say and I'm not one of these people who believes that there is only one way to achieve a high standard of brass playing.
I am happy to admit that one reason I take issue with those who advocate deep breathing and wind power is a direct result of it being an obsession of one of my previous teachers. I welcomed the ideas of Jerome Callet's teaching because it is a way to achieve the same; and actually, for me, better; results without all of the huffing and puffing that had been drummed into me for years because of this:
| Quote: | Claude Gordon's systematic approach to daily practice:
With proper practice of the following routines, the control of your air will develop greatly thru repetitious use.
1. Take a big breath, fill up, even if you only play one note. Get in the habit of filling up. (You wouldn't start a trip with the gas tank of your car only 1/4 full.)
2. Now pick up your horn and blow. Don't hold back. Put air thru your horn. It is alright if you miss, but get into the habit of blowing.
3. Never let your air supply get below half-way. Always keep filling up.
4. When you are going uphill, blow. Don't hold back - step on the gas.
5. When descending, ease off - save it. |
I really think that a primary cause of people blowing too much is that they use mouthpieces that are too big for them. Their range becomes limited and so they increase wind power to try and increase support. We all know that is isn't how the great players play, but I think that there are a lot of professional players out there who know nothing else. That's a shame.
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https://neotericbrass.com/
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| trumpetplanet wrote: | | crzytptman wrote: | | ...you put your lips in a mpc and blow air and the trumpet responds due to the physics of the tube resonance. |
No. This is not how the Superchops approach works and I am pretty confident that you already know that.
In the Superchops method we produce the sound but means of a spit-buzz. What you are putting into the instrument is primarily vibration, albeit with a little, tiny, insy-winsy bit of air.
And by the way, this is what I meant by "strikes again". Please refrain from this "playing dumb" thing that you do and disrupting our conversations. If you wish to add to the actual subject of this thread then please do. |
Alright. What I should have said is "my understanding of how the trumpet works is that one puts one's lips in the mpc and passes excited air through them into the trumpet, where a reaction occurs and the result is a sound."
I do have some familiarity with Jerry Callet's teaching. I am not "playing dumb". I start a lot of beginners every year, and I never have them buzz. I have them blow a stream of air through the mpc hole, to get the feel. Them we put mpcs in the horns and repeat. The magic happens, and the result is a trumpet tone. I always tell students that they are not blowing air through the full length of tubing, they are blowing against the standing wave and allowing the magic to happen.
I do agree with you that much of what is taught is about what it feels like, rather than what is actually happening, and the description can interfere with what needs to happen.
In my understanding, "a little, tiny, insy-winsy bit of air" goes through the lips for a high register note. I don't understand how that can be the case for lower registers, hence my question to you about the physics of Superchops.
I have read many times Richard Smith's ITG article detailing his experiment of blocking air from passing out of the mpc with latex, and diverting the air through a hole in the side. Have you? Fascinating.
I hope we can have a discussion.
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trumpetplanet
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:53 am Post subject: |
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crzytptman: I don't know why it is, but quite often I misunderstand the tone of your posts and I interpret them as being provocative. It really isn't my intention to make an enemy of you and I apologise for responding the way I did. However, as you said, you are familiar with Jerome Callet's teaching and so you know what my response to "you blow air" is going to be. Let's leave that for now? As you can see in my previous post I obviously take issue with "wind power thinking" for personal reasons as much as anything else.
Addressing the question about more air for low notes... I have seen you ask this before and I don't think you were provided with a decent answer then either. All I can say on the matter is that I try to keep my technique consistent throughout the full range of the instrument so that I maintain a similar "quality" of sound.
As for the experiment you mentioned, I will go and look it up now as it sounds really interesting.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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veery715
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| trumpetplanet wrote: | | crzytptman: I don't know why it is, but quite often I misunderstand the tone of your posts and I interpret them as being provocative... |
What? Nate, provocative?
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veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| veery715 wrote: | | trumpetplanet wrote: | | crzytptman: I don't know why it is, but quite often I misunderstand the tone of your posts and I interpret them as being provocative... |
What? Nate, provocative? |
Haha! Well, Socratic questions reveal contradictions and lead to learning the truth. Nothing wrong with that unless you go to public school.
Planet, I apologize for the confusion. I did not mean "you", and that's why I clarified my statement. If anyone blows an energized airstream through a mpc hole into a leadpipe, a tone will resonate in the pipe. I just now tried to do that with a spit buzz - not so good. I don't claim to know the physics, just a rudimentary understanding. So that's my question - what's the difference between spit buzzing into the pipe vs "blowing" or supplying the energized air to create the reaction in the pipe, and what is the benefit? I don't think it sounds better, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Regarding Doc Severinsen, I don't think he's blowing a lot of air through the trumpet. I think he's using a lot of air to make the trumpet work, brilliantly I might add - in all contexts of the word! Clear, focused, brilliant, resonant and projecting. I'll have what he's having!
Do good trumpet ears think he is overcoming an inefficient approach by sheer will of artistry? That's a Socratic question, by the way . . .
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:13 am Post subject: |
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If you equate using a decent amount of air with lots of "huffing and puffing" and a great deal of effort - then you're clearly on the wrong foot to start with.
I'm not a Claude Gordon guy, but proper breathing and blowing does not have to require great effort. In fact, it should be natural and almost effortless.
I think that's even the title of one of his volumes.
Those players that were mentioned, Herseth, Balsom, Martin, and Hooten - I obviously don't know what they've studied, but they've figured that out. No offense to Callet, but it's hardly the only method toward efficient playing. If you think so, then you've haven't learned the other methods properly.
But, whatever works for you is fine.
Personally, I think sound is as important as efficiency. That's the other part of these other methods that's very key to them.
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Forte
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | Whenever I read articles, books, watch documentaries or other presentations, an important tool for assessing the truth of statements is to check sources. So if the author/presenter makes a claim or references a situation that occurred or quotes someone, the validity of that claim or reference rests on the author/presenter's ability to produce or reproduce.
I'm always excited to learn new things. |
Could you please provide us with a listing of the articles, books, documentaries or other presentations you have investigated for truthfulness?
Please describe the nature and extent of the procedures performed in your investigations. Also list the the source documentation you obtained.
Please provide the outcomes of these investigations and support for your conclusions.
I think this information would be fascinating and quite instructional to the rest of the forum.
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpetplanet wrote: | | crzytptman wrote: | | ...you put your lips in a mpc and blow air and the trumpet responds due to the physics of the tube resonance. |
No. This is not how the Superchops approach works and I am pretty confident that you already know that.
In the Superchops method we produce the sound but means of a spit-buzz. |
I don't think you really mean to say that your trumpet does not act like a resonator, nor that it does not create a standing wave. Mr Callet has put in a lot of time and effort (and gotten fabulous results!) developing several trumpets that respond in exactly this fashion, and respond quickly and easily. You are suggesting that his embouchure techniques reduce all that to a simple megaphone, which simply is not true. |
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trumpetplanet
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | I don't think you really mean to say that your trumpet does not act like a resonator, nor that it does not create a standing wave. Mr Callet has put in a lot of time and effort (and gotten fabulous results!) developing several trumpets that respond in exactly this fashion, and respond quickly and easily. You are suggesting that his embouchure techniques reduce all that to a simple megaphone, which simply is not true. |
I do not mean to say that my trumpet does not act like a resonator. Nor do I mean to say that it does not create a standing wave. I definitely do not mean to say a single negative thing about the lifetime of work that Mr Callet has put into developing trumpets or techniques for playing them.
Believe it or not I was just making an obviously pathetic attempt to defend the Superchops technique because of the things that others were saying, which, to me, seemed very much like an attempt to debunk it.
You can clearly trace by reading this thread that the thing I took issue with was the word "blow". You can see from reading the Quotes sticky in this sub-forum that Mr Callet does not advocate blowing. That is all I was trying to say.
This thread was supposed to be about mouthpieces. |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well, yeah it started out about mouthpieces. But some statements were made, about which I hadn't heard of before. I just wanted to know where, and if I could hear it somewhere. So we got into discussing how a sound is made on a trumpet. Sometimes threads go like that. I'm curious if someone has looked into the physics of how the Callet system is applied? I have a basic grasp of the conventional wisdom explanation.
Oh, I learned a lot about my embouchure when studying the first Superchops. I played a Callet Jazz for quite a while. Great horn, belongs to a student now. I played the 15S Bukur for a number of years, and also a 10S Bukur. I own a Solo, a 600*, and a custom by Vladimir.
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trumpetplanet
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Well I found that article you mentioned really interesting. Definitely worthwhile pointing people towards that.
I wouldn't like to speculate about any differing physics with a Superchops embouchure. It's a common thing to say that compression is required for playing higher notes; Some people achieve this by simply blowing hard, others maybe by thinking about an ever decreasing aperture, and superchops talks about the air being compressed between the tongue and the top lip. Like veery715 said, once it gets into the trumpet then it must all function in the same way.
I've got a Callet Solo as well and I find it harder to use that the more recent designs. I've never tried ant of the Buker or Vladimir types. They come up on eBay occasionally though so maybe some time!!
Referring back to earlier in the thread - judgements or not, I'd still rather not go bigger than an SC4. I spent a fair amount of time and practice downsizing and I'd rather not be heading back towards the size of rim that an SC8 has. |
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ProAm
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | But, whatever works for you is fine. |
The key.
Gordon doesn't work for everyone. Callet's ideas work for some. Kum ba ya, we all get along and work toward figuring out how we can use this piece of brass to make music. |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpetplanet wrote: | Well I found that article you mentioned really interesting. Definitely worthwhile pointing people towards that.
I wouldn't like to speculate about any differing physics with a Superchops embouchure. It's a common thing to say that compression is required for playing higher notes; Some people achieve this by simply blowing hard, others maybe by thinking about an ever decreasing aperture, and superchops talks about the air being compressed between the tongue and the top lip. Like veery715 said, once it gets into the trumpet then it must all function in the same way.
OK. So, can you take out your tuning slide and spit buzz the pipe? Can you or someone post a video? There are many videos of people blowing the pipe in a "conventional" way. It would be interesting to compare, and see if it really matters.
I've got a Callet Solo as well and I find it harder to use that the more recent designs. I've never tried ant of the Buker or Vladimir types. They come up on eBay occasionally though so maybe some time!!
I used the Solo for one recording session. Latin tune. The sound was like an ice pick. Tough to have in the cans when laying the 2nd part. Came out good in the mix.
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trumpetplanet
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Yeah I'll make you a video 
It'll have to be tomorrow though because I'm pretty rushed today. |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Cool.
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Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
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trumpetplanet
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