IIIA - adjusting jaw position

Paul T. · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:21 am Post subject: IIIA - adjusting jaw position

I'm a IIIA, but with a slightly receded jaw/lower horn angle. I've known for a while (Doug mentioned this to me a couple of years ago) that I should be able to improve certain things about my playing by raising my horn angle and pushing the jaw forward a little more. (I've already raised my horn angle quite a bit in the last few years, but I can tell there's more to go.)

I'm finally getting to the point where it's becoming a priority once again, however, so I plan to focus on it for the next few months.

Do you have any advice on the best way to accomplish this? Things to look out for?

For me:

* Raising the horn angle improves sound and response all over the horn (especially in the middle register, perhaps oddly). It also brightens the sound a little.

* In the upper register, it feels a little more difficult. Placing more pressure on the top lip (to match the pressure on the bottom lip) feels like it's constricting my chops a little: perhaps I push the upper lip down into the mouthpiece a little as I ascend, and having a firmer connection there keeps me from doing this.

* I know that if I overdo it, my jaw hurts a lot. When I first started raising engaging my jaw in the upper register, I had great results but could only practice for about 20 minutes a day or I would start feeling a lot of pain in the TMJ.

I'm well aware of Reinhardt's admonition to "stay with the jaw", and keep the pressure on the lower "legs" constant throughout this. That piece of advice has done a great deal for my playing!

Any other advice you can share, or your own experiences, would be very welcome!

Doug Elliott · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:50 am Post subject:

Just do it.

Paul T. · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:53 am Post subject:

That's my current approach, Doug!

Paul T. · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:09 am Post subject:

Does anyone have any other tips for me?

Things to watch out for? Ways to avoid developing any problems with the TMJ?

My main challenge at the moment is figuring out how it affects the legs/mouthpiece pressure (I've always tried really hard to maintain the lower legs at all times, which improves my playing dramatically, but with a raised horn angle it almost feels like a little less pressure on the bottom helps make the upper register feel easier).

I'm also unsure how to tell if I'm overdoing it in the lower register (where things feel and sound good with a slightly lower horn angle, as I'm currently playing). I do lower the horn a little as I descend, but working on raising the angle of the horn is a little confusing at the moment.

It's going well overall, though.

Are there any particularly good exercises/routines for this? Ways to approach this transition which work better than others?

Doug Elliott · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:44 am Post subject:

It can take a long time to adjust to a more protruded jaw, in terms of strength, endurance, and finesse.

The resting position of my jaw is a LOT farther out than it used to be. An I did have some TMJ popping along the way but it's gone now.

Doug Elliott · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:48 am Post subject:

You'll go through a period of more top lip pressure as everything adjusts. So that's not a surprise.

myreligion · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:49 am Post subject:

Doug Elliott · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:53 am Post subject:

It's pretty normal for a IIIA to lower angle for low range.

There's no question that Paul is a IIIA.

Paul T. · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:21 pm Post subject:

Yep, as Doug says.

I'm not talking about pivoting/tracking, just the horn angle (and jaw position, since they are one and the same in Reinhardt-land) being slightly lower as I descend, where it sounds and feels best.

Paul T. · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:23 pm Post subject:

I already went through this whole process once, about three years ago, but at the time I definitely overdid it and hurt myself. I coped by only playing about 20 minutes a day until my body adjusted, and found a decent balance there.

I'm more and more sure now, however, that I can raise the horn angle even more than I did back then, so I'm going through it again. But I can't afford to injure myself or cut back on practicing right now, hence this thread.

I'm actually pretty confident that I know enough about my own playing at this point to do this well myself (through trial and error), but I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask for some additional advice, caveats, and/or other peoples' stories (especially if it helps me avoid some of that trial and error!).

Doug Elliott · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject:

You should not continuously force your angle higher. This is a problem with only getting lessons or advice occasionally and thinking you can monitor yourself. Regular follow-ups are necessary to check your progress and avoid problems that inevitably crop up.

The best progress will come by pushing fairly hard for about a week, then relaxing for the next week or so. Repeat. That way you get a chance for everything to stabilize and evaluate your progress, and you might actually know when you've gone too far before you hurt yourself.

Paul T. · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:17 pm Post subject:

Sound advice, Doug. Thanks!

In any case, I don't have the strength to make anything but a very slight adjustment, so I think the risks are low. But the "one week rule" is a good one, I will try something like that.

jwilson46 · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:34 pm Post subject:

Doc always said that the 1st point of breakdown of an embouchure occurs "under the ears", where these muscles control the lower jaw position. When this "gives in" to playing demands, the next things to go are the "mouth corners". Then the muscles of the lips become tired and development is at a standstill.

The jaw retention drill will help develop the muscles "below the ears" and will eventually make a more forward lower jaw easier to maintain.

John

Paul T. · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:56 am Post subject:

A quick update:

I'm totally failing at the "one week rule", because returning to a lower horn angle just doesn't feel good or sound good.

So I'm trying to maintain the new position all the time (at least when I'm conscious of it). I can feel some fatigue in the jaw, but no pain or problems. I'm also not killing myself with hours and hours of playing, either.

So far so good, I suppose.

With some horns it's difficult to do physically, however - I'm a trombonist, and any horn which is front-heavy is just plain hard to hold at the right angle without getting some pain in the wrist/hand.

Doug Elliott · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:16 pm Post subject:

OK, wait until it falls apart and then you'll appreciate the lower angle more.

Paul T. · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject:

Doug,

Until *what* falls apart?

That sounds scary.

razeontherock · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: IIIA - adjusting jaw position

Doug Elliott · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:09 pm Post subject:

Ray: excellent post.
Paul: you'll know when it happens. Or maybe it won't.

Paul T. · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:43 pm Post subject:

Ray, that's great stuff. Similar to my own experience in many ways.

Doug,

This sounds very mysterious and frightening. Are there any danger signs to look out for? The last thing I need right now is for something to "fall apart"...

Doug Elliott · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:17 pm Post subject:

As I think I said before, if you continually try to force a higher angle and jaw out, there will come a time when you need to give it a rest. Your chops will let you know in a big way if you go beyond what's good for you. It's probably better to play it safe and do a week on, a week off; or up to a month on, a week off if you're adventurous.