To tongue or not to tongue?

[Norseman]

Hi!
When I play a slow ballade or hymn of some kind I have a habit of not using tongue. (When repeating the same note I use a very soft tongue).
I think this way the solo is more fluent and melodic.

I'm just curious:
Is it OK to play slow,lyric tings this way?
Is no tonguing on tunes like this a common thing?
Or is this way of playing a no no! ?

Hope some of you have comments on this!

Best regards!
Norseman

[falado]

How would you sing it? When I play hymns I play as if I were singing the song so think of articulating almost like you are pronouncing the words. Some notes may need to be slightly tongued or emphasized.
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[Brad361]

[Norseman]

Hi again!
Thank you for comments!
Brad 361 wrote:
"I suppose it actually depends on how it sounds when you play like that, but if a student asked me the same question I would tell him that generally speaking, you either slur or use a legato style tongue"

By legato style tongue I suppose you mean a very soft tongue. But what do you exactely mean by sluring the interval? Is with or without tongue?

Best regards
Norseman[/quote]

[razeontherock]

Slurred means changing pitch without use of tongue. I think what Brad meant was starting a phrase with a pronounced attack, not a breath attack. Although I will admit that when playing a ballad, I make use of breath attacks, sometimes.

I think the important thing with a ballad is to make the melody sing, and the improv lyrical. Rules can take a backseat. But when playing legit? We can't take the same liberties.

[Norseman]

OK!
Thank you for clarifying! I also think of sluring as changing Pitch without using the tongue. This is what I do as described above when playing slow, lyric ballades etc.
And I usually start a phrase with a soft tongue and then continue without tongue. Sometimes, when I feel safe, I would start a phrase without tonguing. I do that mostly in the middle register. Regarding notes from g on top of the staff and higher I use more tongue as I ascend. I do that to get a safer slotting.

So, what I can read from your answeres so far is that
1.I'm not alone doing this and
2.it isn't entirely wrong to play slow, lyric melodies without using the tongue?

And again, thank you for sharing your knowledge and tips! TH and you guys are just great!!
Norseman

[cheiden]

I think it's best to be prepared to use a whole range of articulation regardless of the song type. If you get in the habit of always tonguing one way on ballads and another when playing loud and another when playing high, you run the risk of becoming predictable and less interesting. Singers on ballads may well favor gentler phrasing but shouldn't shy away from punctuating things periodically for emphasis. This is an expressive endeavor, don't limit yourself.
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[tommy t.]

"Although it isn't necessry to use breath articulation in performance, it is certaintly a possibility. Schubert did not write "Tave Maria", he wrote "Ave Maria". If you want to play lyrically, you must learn to imitate lyrics to some degree."

John Daniel, Special Studies for Trumpet (2011), p.19.

Tommy T.
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[roynj]

[connormckay]

I like to think of these types of passages as sentences. Sure, the words can flow together smoothly, but there is always that space in between them. I feel that these types of passages should have a specific articulation unless it is specified as another, such as a slur.

[Norseman]

tommy t wrote:
"Although it isn't necessry to use breath articulation in performance, it is certaintly a possibility. Schubert did not write "Tave Maria", he wrote "Ave Maria". If you want to play lyrically, you must learn to imitate lyrics to some degree."

Cheiden wrote:
"I think it's best to be prepared to use a whole range of articulation regardless of the song type. If you get in the habit of always tonguing one way on ballads and another when playing loud and another when playing high, you run the risk of becoming predictable and less interesting."

I'm totally with you regarding different tongue styles for different music. I was only talking about slow melodic solos. From what I have read so far is it most common to use some kind of tongue regardless styles.

Another thing.. As you can see I don't know how to get the quote thing going. I try to use the quote butten, but its coming out wrong. I write on an iPad, maybe thats why?

Anyway, Thank you all for interesting input!
Best regards from
Norseman

[nvidal]

Breath attacks and whatever else your imagination, go for it as long as you make it sound good.

But I will say, breath attacks while setting up the physical system, is a HUGE MISTAKE. Besides, a nice clean opening attack is something you want to practice as often as possible everyday anyway, at least i do.

So, DO NOT BREATH ATTACK when setting up.

I'm going to catch grief for this, but honestly, all this advice of quiet playing has nearly ruined me several times. Yet because so many great players recommend, i kept going back to it.

To me, play quiet, but only after you've really fired up the physical system.

But when your head is right, and the chops are nice and responsive to the RELAXED breath, articulation what ever you want.

Good luck

[nvidal]

Like Bud Herseth says, articulation should be 10% consonant, 90% vowel.

When you are setup this way, you can use any time letter of the alphabet to intiiate your attack. just depends on the music you need to play of course.

[hup_d_dup]

I have worked on both the Conconi and Bordogni etudes, with two different teachers. Both etude books are full of slur markings that can be interpreted as phrase markings.

When I asked whether the phrases should be slurred or tongued, both teachers gave me the same answer: either is valid and they should be made to sound good either way. Ultimately, the performer decides whether to slur, tongue, or use some combination, but only after mastering both techniques.

Hup

[Dan O'Donnell]

This is a great question!

I do the same thing and wondered if I should stop doing it.

During my lesson with Arturo Sandoval, I asked him the same question.

He took one of my Jazz standard charts and started playing it exactly as written (no slurring) he then stopped and started again slurring notes...WOW...What a difference for the better!

He then explained something (paraphrased) like this...

When playing a solo, you must make the song sound nice even if you don't play it exactly as written.

Playing this solo by tonguing all of the notes sounded choppy...when I slurred notes it gave it a nice and smooth flowing sound.

However...you must remember though...when playing with a group (combo, band, orchestra etc.) you MUST play the notes exactly as written in order for those notes to blend properly with everyone else who are playing the notes as written in order for the song to sound exactly as written.

(Note: Since he explained this to me I imagined a few Trumpet players in a horn section slurring and others tonguing making a muddied or sloppy sound.)

Just my advice...

I used to use a beautiful vibrato on almost all of my notes which helped to create a train wreck especially when playing with a group...meaning I overused my vibrato and used it in the wrong places and at the wrong times.

This too can be true when slurring while playing solos.

Some pieces (even Hymns) require a separation between notes through tonguing in order to create maybe say a majestic or triumphant feeling.

Imagine if the opening bars for the theme song from the movie Rocky if the notes were slurred...

This post came at a perfect time for me...Tomorrow, I will be playing 8 Hymns as Trumpet solos with Piano at a Christian music event...I'll now think about what Arturo taught me while playing...
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Psalms 150:3

[nvidal]

[brassjunky]

I use what I would describe as a lip attack a lot, starting the note with the pressure created as if you are using the lips to say puh softly. Probably this is what most would call a breath attack. I find I can get a clean but gentle attack to a note using this method, that is usable from jazz to classical situations. If the music gets fast or I need a more percussive articulation I introduce the tongue mostly striking the forward half of the roof of my mouth rather than behind the top teeth as many method books instruct.
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