Downstream Type IV?

[elgin]

I studied with Doc around 1980. I’m a very low placement type IV. Lately, my chops haven’t been cooperating, so I decided to check my airstream with my plastic mpc. I couldn’t find the airstream anywhere in the top part of the mouthpiece!!

When I did locate the airstream, it was at the throat and lower… like a type III. How could that be you ask. Here’s what I found. I have what Jeff Smiley of The Balanced Embouchure calls a protruding top lip. In other words, when I blow and buzz normally, a small flap of skin in the middle of the top lip pops out. It’s like a so-called cupid’s bow except that it is made of the very soft inner skin of the lip that you don’t normally see at rest. So, when I place the mpc and blow, instead of the “V” forming in the bottom lip and directing the airstream up, the top lip flap pops out further than the bottom lip and forces the airstream in a downward direction—right down to the lower part of the mpc cup!

So is that type IV with an anomalous airstream direction? Anomalous dominance , when not detected, can cause problems. I use that borrowed term because normally the extremely low placement would almost certainly mean that the lower lip would dominate the mpc space. Ergo, type IV. That wasn’t always the case with me, but it is now. What to do?

Based on these observations, here’s what I tried.
1. Curl in the top lip more than usual to control the flap
2. Uncurl the bottom lip slightly
3. Set with normal buzzing firmness, BUT with the bottom lip actually slightly forward of the top lip
4. Placed the mpc
5. Nose inhalation
6. Puckered Hoo attack

In other words, I set my mpc on an embouchure formed as if I were going to buzz UPSTREAM. It actually worked quite well and felt much easier to play.
• Sound was much bigger, and
• Ease of playing dramatically improved.
• Flexibility slightly improved.
• Range was better. (Slipped to a double Eb when going for double C. That’s never happened before.)
• I don’t know how this will affect endurance, but it should be better. Oh, with this setup, the airstream can be seen hitting in the top part of the mpc.

I don’t want to be too optimistic, but what do you guys think? Have you heard of this issue before? Is my alternate setup likely to work? Based on your Pivot System experience, what would you recommend?
Thanks for your feedback.
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[Mike Sailors]

My first question would be - how did you locate your airstream direction by yourself?
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[elgin]

Mike
Mirror and iPhone
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[Doug Elliott]

I have definitely known players like that - a false IV that looks in every way like a IV but it's really a IIIB. There's one in the movie that I made in 1988. In fact, that's the only reason I knew his airstream was going down - in editing it I was able to watch the film frame by frame - and I could see the little puff out of the top lip inside the mouthpiece on the attack.

There are also plenty of people who look in every way like IIIB but the airstream is going up so they're really IV.

The pivot is identical, so does it really make any difference?

For the player in the movie (another Reinhardt student, who started originally as a IIIB) we moved his placement down lower and lower until it was definitely upstream and the top lip had no tendency to come out. The result was that his overall visible motion as he played went from a lot of motion to extremely stable with virtually no motion. He still had a very bright sound that persists to this day.

[elgin]

Doug
Thanks for your response. I hesitate to move lower because it is already so low that it is difficult to find the top leg. Also, the tendency to slip down out of the upper lip groove is significant. Over the years I’ve had so many cold sores that with the surface scarring on my bottom lip, I believe that it is part of the reason that there is no “V” formed in that lip when I blow. Maybe I'll experiment with vertical placement just a little.
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[Doug Elliott]

You said "I’m a very low placement type IV. " You've been thinking that for over 30 years now....
Well apparently you're not, and probably never were.
It's an easy mistake to make, and I don't blame Doc for that. Although he invented embouchure typing, understandable mistakes were made.
With my 40 additional years of experience learning and teaching the Pivot System, I try hard to do a better job and not to make mistakes.

There are things to explore. Maybe you should be more of a normal IIIB with a slightly higher placement and lower horn angle. If you need help with it I'm available by Skype... or.. I see you're in Virginia... you can't be that far from me.

[elgin]

Doug
Last night after rehearsal I mess around with a IIIB setup. It has possibilities. Actually, I'm a IIIsomething on trombone. Very high placement. Never been typed on it. Trumpet is my main axe, but trombone is so much easier to play in every way chop wise. And I can play it for ever. Man..if trumpet could be like that.

BTW, I checked my notes from Doc R. "Type IV (for now)"
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[Paul T.]

[elgin]

Paul
There are downsides:
I tried it in rehearsal last night: no endurance. As I tire, it's difficult to manage the airstream direction. It becomes unpredictable.
I'm getting together with Doug to get this figured out.
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[Paul T.]

Very interesting!

I hope you'll update us on how that goes.

[elgin]

Yesterday I had an eye-opening typing session with Doug E. After a few minutes of getting acquainted, we started right in with Doug observing my embouchure mechanics on trumpet and trombone. After the evaluation he said that “with a 99% certainty”, I’m not a IV , I’m a IIIA! As you know, these are opposites.

Everything is the opposite of what I’ve been doing for 34 years:
Original Type IV:
Place mpc low
To ascend: pull chops down to left
To descend: push chops up to right
New Type IIIA:
Place mpc high
To ascend: push chops up to left
To descend: Pull chops down to right

After only a day on the new setup, what does it feel like? During the actual mouthpiece placement, it feels all wrong; it feels like there’s no way this could work. But is does work. After over 30 years of IV, I’ve got a lot of habit retraining to do.

It’s too early to draw too many conclusions except that I’m very surprised, incredulous, and at the same time optimistic. I’ll report in a week.
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[Paul T.]

Very interesting!

Looking forward to hearing more. How did the IIIA assessment come about - was it just trial and error, or some other clue?

Thanks!

[razeontherock]

I second the motion, that this is a very interesting case

[Doug Elliott]

A combination of diagnostic testing, watching and listening while playing lip slurs in different ranges, checking out the effect of moving different directions, and buzzing into the horn (walking in) to see what the possibilities might be. Mostly on trumpet, but I checked him on trombone too.

Sort of trial and error, but mostly putting together a lot of clues.

The main clue being the simple fact that what he was doing didn't seem like it was working as well as it should have been.

It's possible to play extremely wrong for your face and get away with it, if the playing you're doing isn't too demanding. But both of you guys already know that.

[elgin]

Here’s a little update on my “type conversion”:
Tonight makes one week since Doug retyped me from IV to IIIA. Things are going very well. It will take more than a week to change 30 years of habits. E.g., when I pulled out Clarke’s Technicals, it was like autopilot kicked in. I had to stop and run through a little pivot establishment routine that Doug gave me to get things going in the right direction. Then, I had to relearn the Technical Studies. Make that relearning.

Last night was my first rehearsal with the new setup. I was a little anxious about whether I could maintain my IIIA setup in a useful manor without stepping all over it. Not perfect, but I was pleased.

Embouchure stability/top lip slip: I’ve mentioned in multiple posts on multiple forums my long-term top lip slippage problem. Doc told me that I’d probably eventually want to play dry top lip. I could never get used to that. As a IV with type 2 pivot, pulling down to ascend exasperated the slippage. However, with type 1 push up to ascend pivot, that issue is greatly minimized. Now, the pull down is done while relaxing slightly while heading to the lower range. I feel like I’m going with the lips instead of against them. Also, pushing up to ascend helps keep the mpc higher. It still feels strange, but since it works, I get immediate positive feedback.
The mpc seems to “stick” better. My embouchure feels more stable. It’s still a conscious effort to place a little higher and not slip back to my 30-year type IV setup.

Consistency: Consistency was actually a noticeably better than usual. F# to A at the top of the staff have always been very inconsistent because I could never be sure exactly where the mouthpiece would be on my top lip. “Moving target…” G’s were satisfyingly consistent last night.
Required effort: When I do the proper buzzing-firmness-just-touching, place, inhale set and pivot, playing effort is less. Surprise.

Tonguing: I haven’t thought much tonguing differences, but it feels more solid. My jaw is in about the same position. Maybe someone can explain why this is.

Range: Practice room range is higher. Performance range is the same…so far. One observation is that with IV, playing above HC seems to change the texture of my top lip. Like it thins it out, and then my lip slippage quickly worsens. I don’t get that same phenomenon as a IIIA. That’s encouraging.

Endurance: Endurance is noticeably better, but I wouldn’t call it dramatic at this point. Overblowing low register is something I need to pay attention to. Also, making sure that I don’t drop my jaw or over-relax. It’s very easy to tell if I do any of these; I lose the initial setup and feel weak. I then need to take time to reset.

Overall, the change from IV to IIIA is going very well, and I’m extremely optimistic. When my chops are fatigued, all bets are off, but up to that point, it feels mighty fine indeed.
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[Paul T.]

Great report, thank you! Looking forward to hearing how that continues for you.

I'm a sort of IIIA convert myself, although I initially did it on my own (and Doug confirmed and tweaked it).

[shaolin]

When I studied with Doc in Philly in the mid-to-late 1970s, my mouthpiece placement was far to the right side of my embouchure, and Doc had me playing well as a Type IV. Fast forward: After many years away from the horn, my comeback has been under the guidance of Dave Sheetz. My placement is now close to dead center, and Dave has me playing--better than ever--as a Type IIIB.
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[elgin]

Things are still fairly inconsistent, and I have several Christmas concerts. So, I've put the new IIIA setup on hold for now. Back to IV to get 'er done.
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[elgin]

I finally got up to see Doug for a face-to-face lesson. It was great, and guess what? Yup, I’m definitely a IV! Turns out that the resolution wasn’t so good in my Skype lesson (my fault). What looked like a IIIA was not. When I thought I was doing the IIIA upward embouchure motion to ascend, I was only shifting weight to the top lip, which of course does affect the upper register, but not in the right way. Kind of like using what Dr. R. called the “trump card”. I was using it constantly.

I had sort of come to the same conclusion on my own, because playing as a IIIA just didn’t work for long.

So, back to IV. Here’s what Doug has me working on:
• More upward embouchure motion when descending. (I had downward embouchure motion to ascend, but not enough upward embouchure motion when descending.) In other words, I had approximately the correct downward embouchure motion for ascending, but never actually moved back up to the “sweet spot” for the middle and lower register. This may have indirectly contributed to my mouthpiece gradually slipping lower on my top lip.
• Less corner movement. I had been accomplishing some of the pivot with my mouth corners, not with my hand/mouthpiece. It seemed to me that moving the embouchure up and down with the mouth corners would have the same effect as moving the embouchure with the mouthpiece. Evidently, this is not the case. I realize that Reinhardt said that the mouthpiece and lips track as one unit up and down on the teeth. So, I’m stabilizing the mouth corners and trying to pivot exclusively with the mouthpiece (controlled by the hands).
• Timing of the pucker. My pucker has been a little earlier than the blow. I’m working to delay the pucker (or start the blow a little earlier) so that the pucker occurs simultaneously with the blowing.

As for the protruding top lip, I’m making good progress via several approaches:
• As a drill, blow air toward the nose. In my personal experience and with my students, blowing air to the nose causes the top lip to curl in and works the muscles that keep it in that position. It seems to be a natural top lip reaction to blowing up.
• Freebuzzing with the top lip curled in. This is a short temporary exercise to get the feel of the top lip staying curled in. It’s still a downward buzz, but the top lip does not overlap the bottom lip. Compared to a normal freebuzz, it feels like I’m buzzing upstream, but the air is still going in a downward direction.
• Setting the lips in the “just touching firmness” with a slightly curled in top lip.

Sorry for any confusion. But, you know, this has been an excellent learning experience. Now I know what IIIA feels like; definitely different than IV! Also, I have a much better understanding and feel for my own chops as a low mouthpiece placement (IV) player.

BTW, on trombone, I can make work as a IV or a IIIA. I’m going with IV for now to reinforce my type.
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[Paul T.]

Very interesting, thanks for the update!

I hope you'll post again in a month or two to let us know how things are progressing.