Altered v. Diminished scales over V7

Turkle

Hello, all. A jazz theory question for those that know a bit more about these things than I do. Thank you in advance!

So over a V7 chord, there are two sort of similar options for "hip" notes that are a little bit out but still sound quite pleasant to the ear: the half-whole diminished scale, and the altered/superlocrian/tritone-sub-#11 scale. Now, to my ears, the diminished scale just sounds so much better than the altered.

Both scales share the extremely tasty 1, b9, #9, 3 as the first four notes. These are bread-and-butter notes for altered dominant chords and are used everywhere in the jazz canon.

It's the upper sections of these scales where the real difference lies. The diminished scale continues #11, 5, 13, b7, which sounds very, very "in" and loses the "avoid note" natural-11.

The altered/superlocrian/tritone-sub-#11 goes b5/#11, #5, b7. The altered 5s and lack of a 13 are what just sound... trashy.

For the life of me, I can't get the altered scale to sound good! It always sounds to me like I'm just trying too hard to play "out" and "hip" notes - like they don't really belong. So it occurred to me that maybe I'm just using them in the wrong context.

So my question to you all: are there contexts in which you prefer the diminished sound over the altered sound? Blues v. ii-V7-I v. iib5-V7b9-i? Should I just do what sounds more natural to me and ditch the altered scale altogether? Or are there contexts in which I should definitely be thinking altered rather than diminished? I know that of course opinions will differ about this but some insight into your own thought processes will be welcome. I'd like to know where you personally prefer one sound over the other.

Thank you for your thoughts. Please, if you are just going to post that musical theory is useless and I should just listen to Clifford Brown records over and over until I magically learn to play and write complicated jazz passages, please save it for another thread. Thanks!
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EBjazz · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:42 am Post subject:

Improv Lesson 3 will help you.
http://www.bolvinmusic.com/musicnet-lessons/

Eb
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jiarby · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2011 Posts: 1188

Quit trying to play "hip" and just play something that sounds good.

homebilly · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject:

Lee has all of the answers to your questions......and he ain't playin scales!

hip yourself to Lee and set yourself free!
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JSco · Veteran Member Joined: 11 Jul 2014 Posts: 146

Hi Turkle, check out Lee Morgan's solo on "Are You Real" (off of the Moanin' messengers album). At bar 7 of his solo he delays the resolution of the E7 to A-7, playing (descending) F-C-Ab-G-F-E-D-C. That outlines most of the altered dominant money notes (excluding the #11) in a way that isn't too jarring. Another common alerted dominant "lick" is (descending over E7) G-F-C-G#-G-F-E.

If you're trying to not sound too "out", avoid the #11 and build the b13 into your line as a passing tone, leading into the #9 and b9, which as you point out are definitely your bread and butter notes for either altered or half/whole diminished scales.

One other strategy I've heard that is more dissonant is to build a regular pentatonic scale off of the tritone of a dominant chord. So for E7, you would mess around with Bb-C-D-F-G. Melodic but dissonant at the same time.

Turkle · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:05 pm Post subject:

Turkle · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:07 pm Post subject:

Turkle · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject:

Another question - do you have different preferences for altered v/ diminished over major or minor changes? I tend to see 7alt chords paired with minor changes...
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JSco · Veteran Member Joined: 11 Jul 2014 Posts: 146

JSco · Veteran Member Joined: 11 Jul 2014 Posts: 146

Bluesy · Veteran Member Joined: 01 Oct 2014 Posts: 477

~~For dominant 7ths that go "home" (back to the tonic) play a jazz minor scale a half-step up from the dom 7th.
For dominants that go to another dominant, play a jazz minor scale a 5th above the dominant.

This was Wes Montgomery's little trick to get that wonderful sound of his.

For those who are not familiar, the jazz minor scale has only the third dropped a half-step. The rest of the scale is "major".

Try this; Get a guitarist to strum a dominant 7th for you and just play up and down one octave on the appropriate jazz minor scale. You'll hear the sound.

For dom. NOT going home (back to the tonic) think about "A-Train". The first dom. goes to another dominant. Play the jazz minor scale a fifth above the dominant.

I got this tip from a video by Emily Remler.
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homebilly · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:30 am Post subject:

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waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
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Turkle · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:48 am Post subject:

Fuzzy Dunlop · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Posts: 630

Mac Gollehon · Veteran Member Joined: 27 Feb 2014 Posts: 255

As a matter of fact dominant 7th or V7 scale choices can include the scales mixolydian ,major pentatonic,whole tone,dininished,half step diminished has flat 9 sharp 9 sharp4, lydian dominant,blues scale,hindu scale with flat 6,bebop dominant, diminish whole tone flat 9 sharp 4 sharp 5. learn it like your social security # then forget it.

bobbystern · Veteran Member Joined: 06 Mar 2013 Posts: 125

Turkle

craigtrumpet · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:31 pm Post subject:

EBjazz · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject:

Here's something I wrote way back about using tetrachords (first 4 notes of a scale):

The Bb minor tetrachord over C7 gives you the b7, root, b9 and #9. Much easier way to conceive your altered tones then trying to think of a Diminshed/wholetone scale, which incidently is a dim tetrachord and a whole tone tetrachord.
You can get a lot of mileage out of just your major and minor tetrachords by superimposing them over V7 chords. For example over C7alt you can use Bb min, Ab maj, C#min, Dmaj, etc.
Some other tetrachords that work over C7 alt are F#lydian, D#phrygian, E lydian, C# phrygian, Eb dorian.
Combine two tetrachords to create fun scales like this F#lydian+C# dorian = F# lydian dominant = C diminished wholetone!!
Or invent scales that have no name like C dorian + F# lydian.
This is just another approach to playing over altered V chords that I use and teach that seems easier to implement than the Jamey scale. Try it and let me know if it works for you.
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