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AlfaFreak
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 Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:06 pm Post subject: Haydn (J) Concerto - Which cadenza? |
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I'm sure its been asked many times previously but here goes...
Which cadenza do you use for the end of the 1st movement of the J Haydn Concerto for auditions?
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nvidal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:31 pm Post subject: Wynton's |
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| if you can do it, Wynton Marsalis' would be my vote. |
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Gregory Gilmore
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:00 pm Post subject: Cadenza |
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| You should try composing your own cadenza... |
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eric33
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Niklas Eklund's is really great...
Éric |
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Jay Lichtmann
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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1st Movement Sheet Music:
http://goo.gl/Bf1OxM
1st Movement Audio:
http://goo.gl/yLYK7t
3rd Movement Sheet Music:
http://goo.gl/ZkLw4y
3rd Movement Audio:
http://goo.gl/S7RYqj
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MrClean
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent cadenza, Jay.
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Last edited by MrClean on Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dbacon
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your continued contributions to this site, Jay. Wonderful stuff here! |
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nvidal
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Wynton's |
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| nvidal wrote: | | if you can do it, Wynton Marsalis' would be my vote. |
I am an idiot. I misread your post, i thought favorite cadenza was your question, good luck, remember one thing in your audition, don't forget to blow! |
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sjtrumpet
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Jay Lichtmann
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:37 am Post subject: |
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That is interesting. Has anyone heard the Stockhausen cadenzas to the Haydn? I would love to hear what he has done with them.
| sjtrumpet wrote: | | Write one. |
You know it's easy to say "Write one!" but actually sitting down and writing an effective cadenza is harder than it sounds if you, like me, have had no composition training and never aspired to write any music.
I set out MANY times to write a cadenza and failed. I used to use the Maurice Andre cadenza and I vowed that I would not use anything that I wrote until it was at least AS GOOD as that one.
Something you can do to get you thinking about how to construct one is to take parts of different cadenzas that you like and try to string them together. For the Neruda concerto I did just that and assembled a cadenza for each movement from several existing published cadenzas. While what I got was not "my own" I felt it was better than any one single published cadenza.
Also it is helpful to get a score of the piece and look at some of the interior parts and bass lines; try to use that material in some way.
Finally try to remember that the cadenza is a time in the piece for a soloist to SHINE and strut their stuff. If you choose someone elses cadenza because you like it but don't sound good on it you defeat the purpose of a cadenza in the first place. It doesn't have to be the flashiest thing on the planet, but it should be executed PERFECTLY to be effective.
I found that writing cadenzas is HARD, good luck if you attempt it.
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In his retirement he had become that most dreaded of former athletes, the one who always remembered how much harder it was in his day "when ships were made of wood and men were made of steel."
Samuel Abt on Eddy Merx
Last edited by Jay Lichtmann on Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nvidal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Jay Lichtmann wrote: |
That is interesting. Has anyone heard the Stockhausen cadenzas to the Haydn? I would love to has what he has done with them.
| sjtrumpet wrote: | | Write one. |
You know it's easy to say "Write one!" but actually sitting down and writing an effective cadenza is harder than it sounds if you, like me, have had no composition training and never aspired to write any music.
I set out MANY times to write a cadenza and failed. I used to use the Maurice Andre cadenza and I vowed that I would not use anything that I wrote until it was at least AS GOOD as that one.
Something you can do to get you thinking about how to construct one is to take parts of different cadenzas that you like and try to string them together. For the Neruda concerto I did just that and assembled a cadenza for each movement from several existing published cadenzas. While what I got was not "my own" I felt it was better than any one single published cadenza.
Also it is helpful to get a score of the piece and look at some of the interior parts and bass lines; try to use that material in some way.
Finally try to remember that the cadenza is a time in the piece for a soloist to SHINE and strut their stuff. If you choose someone elses cadenza because you like it but don't sound good on it you defeat the purpose of a cadenza in the first place. It doesn't have to be the flashiest thing on the planet, but it should be executed PERFECTLY to be effective.
I found that writing cadenzas is HARD, good luck if you attempt it. |
Jay, your materials are great and you seem to be a damn sharp knife, when it comes to music.
Out of curiosity, do you spend time daily improvising? To be honest, I think if you really get through Arban the write way, you will have been given the tools to not only write you own Cadenza, but to IMPROVISE IT.
After trying to improvise with the likes of Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie parker, it's pretty damn easy to improvise a classical cadenza.
1. Start with something lyrical to slow down the mood
2. low note beginning, work your way up some type of chromatic/syncopated, pattern, maybe with a little fancy slur/double tongue along the way
3. Being next with perhaps a strong statement of theme, that tells YOUR STORY. I thought the whole point of learning your instrument was to be able to express YOUR OWN thoughts musically? Go for it
4. End with some type of a loud heavy bang
So this was just a spur of the moment sketch of the type of cadenza i would perform. You are going to be playing alone, instead of being nervous about it, HAVE SOMETHING UNIQUE to say, it's not an opportunity to crumble, but to show off.
The only thing I would disagree with is, given all the access to information we have, the power of personal computing devices, etc. Start trying to write your music, start by stealing pieces from songs you already like, and then by this point you might have enough momentum to be really going somewhere.
Writing Cadenza's is easy, writing GOOD Cadenza's is HARD like Jay says, would be my only tweak. But to generate ideas, one needs to practice improvisation EVERY DAY, no matter how uncomfortable or bad you sound, that's not the goal in the beginning, it's just to do it.
I like to turn on classical radio and invent my own principal trumpet parts on the fly. This has really helped my playing beyond anything I could have imagined.
Good luck.
Nothing is hard with LOTS of practice. NOTHING. |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Jay Lichtmann wrote: | | Something you can do to get you thinking about how to construct one is to take parts of different cadenzas that you like and try to string them together. For the Neruda concerto I did just that and assembled a cadenza for each movement from several existing published cadenzas. While what I got was not "my own" I felt it was better than any one single published cadenza. |
I did something similar to this when I wrote my Haydn cadenza in High School. I took a few riffs I liked from a few cadenzas I heard and added my own stuff as well. It seemed to go over well in my auditions for college.
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mavrian22
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Taking the disccusion slightly back to the OP question. I don't think I've ever been asked to play the cadenza in an (orchestra?) audition. Once in the finals I performed the whole mvt with piano up to the cadenza passage. I'm stateside, its my understanding that in Germany and other oriented countries, you perform the Haydn on Bb rotary and always with Cadenza; most often the Wobisch?? Any German players around who are up on current audition proctol? |
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Jay Lichtmann
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| nvidal wrote: |
Out of curiosity, do you spend time daily improvising?
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I do not, I have never spent time studying improvosation. I have never had the interest or drive to follow that path.
While cadenzas were often times improvised in the classical period that practice was pretty much abandoned after Beethoven. While there are a few keyboard players specializing in early performance practices who do improvise their cadenzas, practically no other soloists do. As I said, the cadenza is a time for the soloist to SHINE. If you really want to play something at the top of your game I think, even if you are a MoFo at improvising the style, most people will have a better outcome if they execute a pre-composed cadenza.
| nvidal wrote: |
Writing Cadenza's is easy, writing GOOD Cadenza's is HARD
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Well that says it all. Who wants to go out there, perform a solo and play a second rate cadenza!?
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In his retirement he had become that most dreaded of former athletes, the one who always remembered how much harder it was in his day "when ships were made of wood and men were made of steel."
Samuel Abt on Eddy Merx |
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nvidal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Lichtmann wrote: | | nvidal wrote: |
Out of curiosity, do you spend time daily improvising?
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I do not, I have never spent time studying improvosation. I have never had the interest or drive to follow that path.
While cadenzas were often times improvised in the classical period that practice was pretty much abandoned after Beethoven. While there are a few keyboard players specializing in early performance practices who do improvise their cadenzas, practically no other soloists do. As I said, the cadenza is a time for the soloist to SHINE. If you really want to play something at the top of your game I think, even if you are a MoFo at improvising the style, most people will have a better outcome if they execute a pre-composed cadenza.
| nvidal wrote: |
Writing Cadenza's is easy, writing GOOD Cadenza's is HARD
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Well that says it all. Who wants to go out there, perform a solo and play a second rate cadenza!? |
Not judging at all Professor Lichtman:) I was very sincere in saying you put out great stuff, love all the scale talk as well, it has greatly helped me as my music theory is not great.
And very true, sometimes i get into that mode of, "let's forget about short term, the RIGHT thing to do for musical reasons is to attempt this/that/etc., but I have lost more auditions than i'm proud to admit because i got caught in this train of thought, well, even if it's not great it's mine and this is the right thing to do. I had a trumpet teacher as a kid that i think most would dream about, never led me significantly off path and admitted he just didn't know the answer, and blasted my head LIVE for hours a day.
The ONLY reason I got got with my ears, is because my teacher was so good at sight reading and transposition, when i watched him do it, I seriously was like, yup, just like how i'm never going to be a champion marathon runner, i'm not going to be a great sight reader/transposer!
He used to know the hard stuff in the Arban so well, i could have him transpose the etudes and solos with very little diminution in speed and technique, if at all. I'd say, play this etude...up a third, down this, etc. He said he used to read about 10 bars ahead, his father was in the NBC symphony orchestra and also played Violin for politicians because this was arguably his better instrument. Having a 10 bar musical RAM memory is probably great to be able to take your time reading and figuring out what sound that note on the paper is:) But i hate him because he wouldn't let us TOUCH the piano! He had bad memories of being forced to practice:)
Okay, i'll shut up. in short, yeah, sorry to lose sight of the first goal, which is to tell a nice musical story, before expecting one to compose one!
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sjtrumpet
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sjtrumpet
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Also, gotta say, I really love John Wallace's recordings - especially his Haydn.
SJ |
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BrucknerTheTrumpet
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqU1pIVXpVg
. (Period)
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nvidal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| BrucknerTheTrumpet wrote: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqU1pIVXpVg
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You have in my opinion, one of the best possible usernames. I salute you sir. LOVE LOVE LOVE me some Bruckner, as down home to me as white lice, i mean rice! |
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