Come back player after almost 30 years

[phoenixtrpt]

I am beginning a comeback after a layoff after college. I find myself in a unique position professionally/financially where I have the luxury of being able to practice 3+ hours per day and still meet my obligations in my non-trumpet world.

I started doing all the stuff I did in college and worked up to a very strong, loud high F/G just doing daily routines and tone enhancement exercises that increased in range. (which is actually higher than I played in college) The next day I found that my chops were beat to heck.

It's obvious the way I used to play and the way I have started coming back are the same and aren't going to work long term or with the goals I have set for myself so I have "slowed my roll" and have decided that if I am going to comeback and be the kind a player I want to be: solid technically, good sound + very solid range and endurance which I never really had before. I need to change my embouchure. The definition of insanity right? If I don't change, I won't ever grow better than I was before.

My dilemma is, there are so many methods and many embouchure/range/endurance techniques and methods... It's hard to sort through what is best for me.

I started doing the Bill Adam routine daily and the higher notes were coming out with too much pressure and force. My concern is if I continue to just play with it incorrectly... I won't get any better. I will only learn to play it incorrectly forever.

I have been doing the Greg Spence online books and they seem to make a lot of sense and I feel I am making some progress, but am still not sure I'm using the proper embouchure for me.

I bought some Pops stuff too, but again. Not sure it's the answer.

I am going to order the BE - balanced embouchure method and see how that looks as I think it may be closer to my embouchure I have played with along with some new material that may help me get over the hump.

I have a teacher lined up that I have full confidence in, but he doesn't really teach range. He is a solid lead player that I have a lot of respect for, but I feel I really need to sort this embouchure thing out before I start with him otherwise I'm going down the road and building bad habits resulting in where I was when I left playing.

Hmmm... I guess I should put a question in here otherwise this is just a rant.

I guess I would ask, what is the best way to find out what embouchure method/technique will work for me? Am I on the right track. Should I just try everything and find what I am most comfortable with?

I'm concerned that I'm going to go through so many different processes that I'm going to get tired of it and give up. I believed I would never be able to be a lead player like I wanted when I was in school so I never pursued it after leaving school. I am glad in some ways because my professional and personal life have turned out great, but I have really enjoyed picking up the horn again. If I could play at the level I want and just help out some HS marching and jazz bands, I think I would be content.

Thanks for reading. I appreciate any responses.

[Comeback]

Welcome to TH! That was quite an introductory post!

I began my comeback after nearly 40 years away from the trumpet. Way back when, I had excellent instruction upon which I still rely, and I enjoy informal research about my interests. So far, my trumpeting trail is one I choose to blaze myself, and I have been happy with my progress. But I am quick to acknowledge that my approach is not for everyone.

What may be important for you is to simply identify an approach and source of instruction that seems to be helping you achieve your trumpet playing goals and commit to it. Best wishes to you concerning your comeback.

Jim

[Rickperon]

Hello phoenixtpt, if you have full confidence in the teacher you have lined up, then maybe you should wait to order any more "methods/books" etc., until you start meeting with him…. if he is a solid lead player, then he probably DOES know about range, endurance etc., with that said, sounds like you need to slow up a little, and maybe focus on some good fundamentals….. hope it all works out for you, welcome back to the world of trumpet!

[BGinNJ]

Hey, where can I get one of those jobs where I can practice 3 hours a day?!

You didn't say how long you've been on this comeback, but it sounds like you're trying to do a lot very quickly. No matter what kind of embouchure you use, it takes a while to build back up. If you overdo it, you'll encourage bad habits and get frustrated.

If you're looking into these various embouchures, you've probably seen a lot of commonality in what to work on- long tones, pedal tones, soft playing, flexibility studies, Arban, etc. I think it's a safe bet to work on that stuff first rather than entertain dramatic changes.

[phoenixtrpt]

Thanks for the replies so far. As far as a job where you can practice for 3 hours a day. It's really easy, just start a company, risk everything and when it takes off after a few years of being broke, you're there. That's another thread I guess. lol

I have just started in the past few weeks. I'm really not overdoing it. I hit it heavy right at first and got to about 90% of what I was in college, but what I found was I was still playing wrong. Too much pressure etc. and I know I'll never accomplish what I want to if I don't fix that NOW so I kinda put the hard core playing on hold until I figure out what is going to work for me.

I never had a teacher who addressed embouchure or endurance etc. so I am really still playing with bad habits.

I have been going slow since I realized I needed to make a change. Right now I'm trying to find the right embouchure for me as I have come to see everyone is different and all these methods work for different people.

My concern with doing a lot until I can decide what is going to work best for me, then commit 100% to it is I don't want to develop bad habits and have to go backward then forward again. I'm doing basically finger exercises right now, Clark, Schlossberg, Arbans but mostly stuff in the staff. I have a great sound in that range, but don't want to get to aggressive and fall into bad habits.

I feel like a guy who has a broken golf swing who isn't going to drive the ball until he fixes some things so I'm working on my short game

[gstump]

I am also a comeback-comeback player. Translation: I came back after a 40 year pro career followed by a 12 year total layoff followed by an 18 month comeback followed by a 3 month layoff followed by my current comeback of 5 weeks. Geez.

Congratulations on your renewed interest in trumpet.

My first impression of your narrative was how you were able to comeback to a good range after a short time. This leads me to believe you already have a sound embouchure and sound playing fundamentals. Then I wondered why you want to change your embouchure.

Is it because you got beat up? I did the same thing and beat the crap out of my chops due to doing too much too soon. I am a Caruso student so I have been imprinted to not over analyze and just play.

Changing an embouchure is akin to learning to walk again after a major medical event. If you are doing something really off like playing out of the corners of your mouth or using your tongue as a lower lip then your teacher would probably have something to say.

All the best,

Gordon Stump
_________________
Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student

[deleted_user_680e93b]

all the methods you purchased will work, i think the thing that most come backers don't put into practice is the resting as much as you play part.
I think we are trying to get it back all at once, the problem is the same mistakes you made before you will make again. too much time with the horn on your face, I have found recently that really resting as much as you play requires discipline. The Bill Adams guys i've read about all talk about how they use to practice together, Basically, one guys does, for example, the long tone study, let's say holding a G for a 12 count, then the next guy does it for the 12 count, thus guaranteeing the required rest. Matt Anklan's website has sound files you can use to implement this kind of practice, he posts here as well. Blowing your chops away everyday will lead to nothing but tired chops, gradual building is the key to attaining you goals, We know it, it's just hard to actually do it. Best of luck in your pursuits !

regards

tom

PS- Love the golf analogy BTW, I Never broke 80 until i spent 2 hours on the putting green and 1/2 hour on the range, that's when things started to change. think about it, really makes sense with trumpet too !!

good luck

tom

[phoenixtrpt]

[phoenixtrpt]

[dcpritchett]

I played through High school and college majoring in music. I had great instructors and was a strong player. I played a New York Bach 21/2 all through college. I decided to up the mouthpiece size to a 2 when I started to practice again using Arban and Clark methods. I found the 2 more comfortable if more challenging. My question involved having to change my set at about fourth space D in order to get the high range. I don't remember having to do this before. I am wondering if it will go away as I get stronger. I have been blowing lots of low range, pedals and lip slurs to strengthen the set. I am getting a clear, open and controllable hi C after three weeks so I am encouraged.
_________________
1995 Holton T101G
1969 Olds Custom-Crafted "C"
1967 Holton F400 Flugelhorn

[Pops]

There are a couple of things I'll address from a couple of posters.

Embouchure and breath support are more important when you are 50 than when you are 18. At 18 you tend to muscle the notes around. Sadly at 50 your body doesn't recover as quickly from the work load. You have to learn to do things a little more efficiently.

You can do an embouchure change in 1 day (I've done thousands) or in a lifetime. The difference is knowing exactly when to move on to the next step. You need a teacher who has done a great many embouchure changes to do it smoothly.

Most people don't need an embouchure change as much as they need to tweak what they have. We have 4 actions that act like octave keys and most players never use 2 of them and so they have lifelong issues.
1. Being relaxed enough that the mouthpiece seal raises our buzz 1 full octave.
2. Using anchor tonguing style tongue arch including the hiss above the staff. In fact at a big trumpet hang/ cancer charity last month both Jens Lindemann and Allen Vizzutti talked about anchor tonguing.
3. Using a instant on/off breath support like how we cough.
4. Using lip to lip compression above high C.

Setting for a higher note is something most great players do.
So-so players set for whatever note the piece starts on. That means if the have a 3 octave range they have 36 slight embouchure alterations.
The problem is that High C feels different with each of those 36 sets. It is almost impossible with the really low sets because of how embouchures actually work. The mouthpiece pins the lips down so that the average embouchure has only have about an octave and 3 notes of motion upward without needing to reset. (I am talking about maintaining the same sound and resonance. Wrong setpoint is one reason why so many players sound bad doing 2 octave scales. They have one sound down low and another as they get higher. many will reset during breaths but sadly that still changes the tone.)
To maintain a more secure feel and an easier range many great teachers teach players to use a set between 3rd space C and G on top of the staff.
Don Jacoby, Reinhardt...
I've been teaching a setpoint for 40 years.
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com

[dcpritchett]

Thanks Pops, I have used the tip of the tongue anchored on the lower teeth exclusively since High School. A teacher named Dale Burke taught me this. I also tongue with the middle of the tongue (double and triple as well) and use the arch to control airstream speed. I guest I had forgotten that I had to shift the set for the upper range. Would a gold rimmed.mouthpiece help of is it just hype about gold being more slippery?
_________________
1995 Holton T101G
1969 Olds Custom-Crafted "C"
1967 Holton F400 Flugelhorn

[Pops]

You don't shift the set. You ALWAYS play with the higher set.
You set and learn to play every note with ONE set but you don't try to use a low one.

The few pros that shift do that above G or A above High C. That means they shift 2-3 times a night. If your shift is lower like High C then you might have to shift 30 times in a song and that would NOT work. OK I need you to play this measure and this one and this one... so I can shift my embouchure. NOT going to happen. Plus you sound different when you shift so they don't want that to happen often either.
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com