Does a dent affect the horn's sound?

LittleRusty

This question gets asked fairly regularly both here and on the other site. Will this dent change the tone of my trumpet?

Many people are familiar with Arturo Sandoval's demonstration showing the different tones he can get on the same trumpet.

It would be interesting to have some of the repair techs, who play the trumpet in addition to doing repairs, to play some of the trumpets that are brought in for repair of dents before and after to demonstrate the effects.

Anyone else interested in hearing clips? Any volunteers?

Adam R. Getzen · Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:47 pm Post subject:

A more interesting comparison (to me anyways) would be to play a horn before/after the horn gets dented.

As far as players that are also respected techs go I'd check with Michael Del Quadro or Josh Landress.
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LittleRusty · Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject:

Adam,

I agree but it might be hard to find people who are willing to sacrifice their babies. But people often bring in their dented trumpets for repair.

Trent might also be someone with access to trumpets with dents. I also thought of YourBrass who I know plays also.

yourbrass · Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject:

My experience is that unless a dent is severe, i.e., the player sat on the horn, no, it won't make much difference. There are, very often, so many other items of neglected maintenance, that once you get everything fixed, the cumulative effect is overwhelming.

-Lionel
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mcgovnor · Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:39 pm Post subject: ..

A totally subjective thing. And a level of sensitivity not often achieved.

LittleRusty · Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject:

Lionel,

Good point.

Mcgovnor,

I agree completely. My thought with this proposed sample is to give those worrywarts something to calm them down and help them realize that most of us mere mortal players will never notice the difference.

rich.Graiko · Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 am Post subject:

Love this video of Tom Harrell playing a very dented Connstellation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgRDOFJW4eI
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Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:06 am Post subject:

Depends where and how big.

As for the worryworts, well, the economy being what it is, I say help out our techs and manufacturers by telling them they need to get that dent repaired ASAP, and if it's too bad just replace the horn.

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cheiden · Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:56 am Post subject:

Size and location make a huge difference. There are places where even a small dent can have a disproportionately big effect, like where the bell meets the valve block. On the other end of the spectrum I know a pro who has a Schilke picc with a significantly crushed bell and it plays just fine.
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James Becker · Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:10 am Post subject:

yourbrass · Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject:

Now HERE'S a dent that affects playability:

...unless you need to play around a corner.

Happy New Year!
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

LittleRusty · Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:17 pm Post subject:

shofarguy · Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:56 pm Post subject:

I guess this is Byron Autrey season...

In one certain conversation, Byron related a conversation he had with Zig during one ride from the NAMM show back to the Kanstul factory. He told Zig that by pushing in with his thumb "right here" (I never got to see where "here" was) he could take away the horn's ability to play E above High C. Then, if he took the dent out, he would put the E back into the horn. Zig didn't believe him at the time.
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Venturi · Veteran Member Joined: 02 Apr 2012 Posts: 262

Though he didn't address dents specifically, Mr. Schilke wrote a nice article about the vibrating air column and the role of the inner surface of the horn:
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Practical%20Physics.html

And while the following also doesn't specifically address dents, it is interesting:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/standw.html

Both of these sources describe how holes in the tubing at key points (allowing pressure to escape) can affect playing.

It's not clear whether dents (rather than holes) might effect playing, as well, and if they do, in what fashion and to what degree. LittleRusty raises an interesting question. Seems like one could do a prospective experiment to look at this, with a "hose-a-phone" … or someone else's horn.

dr_trumpet · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:32 pm Post subject:

Years ago, a student brought his Bach Strad to me with a good sized dent in the bell at the place where the second valve brace to the bell is attached (though on the outside of the bell, opposite the brace...you get the idea). The dent was deep enough that one could put a finger in it, although a pinky finger tip was about all that fit easily. The upper, in the staff D of this trumpet had gone from just a few cents flat to almost a half pitch flat. When one played the D, and the other person put their finger into the dent, the pitch went 30 cents sharper-still not in tune but much closer. Once the dent was removed, the upper D returned to being about 7 cents flat. With a small brace added to the thinner bell (from the dent work) at that point, the horn played in tune on that D, the Eb above it, and the open E. I am not saying a dent will have the same effect every time, but this one sure made the trumpet sound and play differently.

Later, a folding chair was closed on the trumpet, and destroyed the bell and the leadpipe. The valve cluster was a volunteer for a project horn, and we put a 94,XXX 37 Bach bell and a 25 leadpipe on the remaining cluster. The note (the D) was no longer an issue on that bell/leadpipe/cluster combo.
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Fullmetaltrumpet · New Member Joined: 02 Jan 2014 Posts: 5

If it's too big, or if imposes on slide or valve movement, RMB it shouldn't affect the sound.

yourbrass · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:21 pm Post subject:

The trumpet I posted a picture of straightened out pretty well, I say pretty well, because the stretching of the metal was extreme. There's a point at which one has to accept less than perfect in terms of straight bell alignment.

I have a Burbank Benge 3X like this, the damage to the bell was so extreme that the choice was between straight or round. I chose round.

But the "Bend-O-Bach" played well when it was fixed.
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
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