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Paul T.
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:42 am Post subject: Frank Greene - what's the deal? |
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Most of you probably know of one of New York's top lead players: Frank Greene. I've heard him live on many occasions, and he always sounds great.
That was before I studied about Reinhardt's embouchure types, though.
I saw a video of a concert with him recently, and his pivot looks really funny to me. Here's a short clip of him playing a cadenza from that concert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJsYFf-xaFs
I'm very confused looking at this. He looks like a IV to me, but his pivot looks kind of like a IIIA pivot: at times it looks like he's pulling down to descend and pushing up to ascend. (Particularly in the last 10 seconds, from 0:58 onwards.)
What do you think is going on here? |
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tptplayer
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Perhaps he is good and knows how to play the trumpet in a way that works for him. What a concept: play the music and forget about what "type" you are, or someone says you are. |
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| tptplayer wrote: | | Perhaps he is good and knows how to play the trumpet in a way that works for him. What a concept: play the music and forget about what "type" you are, or someone says you are. |
+1
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| tptplayer wrote: | | Perhaps he is good and knows how to play the trumpet in a way that works for him. What a concept: play the music and forget about what "type" you are, or someone says you are. |
You guys with what I take to be smart-ass posts to the Reinhardt Forum obviously don't realize that that's EXACTLY what Reinhardt taught - once you have your chops together, forget about it and play music.
Once you have your chops together - which he obviously does. A lot can be learned from studying people who do have their chops together.
Even while you're working on mechanics in the practice room, forget it when you're out playing music, and just play. That's an essential part of the process, and again, exactly what he taught.
Last edited by Doug Elliott on Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:47 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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I think he's a IIIA. The outside appearance of his placement just doesn't look like what you associate with IIIA. But all of his motion looks to be IIIA with no exceptions.
Reinhardt said there was a rare "Type V" that was upstream with a IIIA pivot, but I don't think his chops look upstream. And I'm not entirely sure Type V really exists. It doesn't really make any sense mechanically, as I see it. |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Man those are some great shots of his chops. Glad to see Doug saying nothing looks wrong, or else I'd be in a heap of trouble!
Here's a couple more chiming in with that ending. Unnecessary pyrotechnics and grainy video, but still ... 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K9GudMyK0c |
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amuk
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| IIIA is my vote. Not a IV. |
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tptplayer
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry Doug. No smart ass post. I meant what I said.He plays the music not worrying what " type" he is. |
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amuk
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think you're not quite right there. Though he may not know the name as "type IIIA". he knows well enough in what direction he has to pivot to pivot to get those notes because he does it.
Looks to me like he's put some work into getting his range so now he can play with it. |
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rich.Graiko
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, so good. It's so nice to hear this kind of fantastic range being used in creative and musical ways like this.
Sorry, I know this was a technical post but I couldn't help but chime in with my .02.. Carry on
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Bluesy
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| tptplayer wrote: | | Perhaps he is good and knows how to play the trumpet in a way that works for him. What a concept: play the music and forget about what "type" you are, or someone says you are. |
+1+
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Meh, you guys that are dogging the Reinhardt thing here are being rather obtuse. There is obvious value in studying successful players and discussing what they are possibly doing to play well. |
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Paul T.
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for the replies (particularly those who responded to my actual question).
He definitely looks like he's playing as a IIIA, but his placement and face looks very type IV. I guess one of us will have to meet him and do the transparent mouthpiece test to know for sure!
I like how he uses his jaw - exactly as Doc taught, as far as I can see, very "textbook" Reinhardt.*
*: Keep in mind that I never actually studied with Reinhardt myself, though.) |
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JoshMizruchi
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | There is obvious value in studying successful players and discussing what they are possibly doing to play well. |
This.
Otherwise, we had a topic before about Frank Greene's type. The general consensus was that he was a type V (Upstream Type IV with Pivot Classification 1: pushing upwards to ascend, pulling down to descend). Seems believable to me.
I think I told this story before but I met Frank at the IAJE conference years back and tried a bunch of Schilke horns with him. One thing I do remember was he was playing some relatively soft high notes on one of the horns, not dissimilar from Reinhardt's compression, or Jon Faddis's upper register development philosophy (which is also similar to Reinhardt's).
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Paul T.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Josh!
That's certainly what it looks like in that video.
Hmmm! Interesting. |
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PhxHorn
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| tptplayer wrote: | | Sorry Doug. No smart ass post. I meant what I said.He plays the music not worrying what " type" he is. |
Your post implies that Reinhardt students "worry" about their type while playing, which is a false claim. |
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pfeifela
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: |
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..nice clip. Not sure if shaking my head in wonderment constitutes a pivot. 
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Guys,
Tptplayer and SpitValve are just trying to say that they've figured out correct brass playing. They're so damn good, that they don't need to inquire about a player's pivot, or other aspects of their embouchure. They're above all of us hacks who study the playing mechanics of others in order to improve our current situations.
Let's take it easy on these guys. Us losers should just go back to "playing music".
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Sailors wrote: | Guys,
Tptplayer and SpitValve are just trying to say that they've figured out correct brass playing. They're so damn good, that they don't need to inquire about a player's pivot, or other aspects of their embouchure. They're above all of us hacks who study the playing mechanics of others in order to improve our current situations.
Let's take it easy on these guys. Us losers should just go back to "playing music". |
They have figured it out. They try to get the air to go through that little hole in the mouthpiece. If they can.
The "pivot system" or "horn angling" is the slight movement of the horn when playing. This is because there is a different amount of pressure exerted against the lip for every note on the horn. Blowing "upstream" or "downstream" does not effect which note you are going to play, since the lip is already set in vibration. Players will blow up in the mouthpiece, or down in the mouthpiece, depending on the shape of the mouth, and whether they have an overbite or underbite.
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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I think you found the bag of worms.
Lots of people seem to think they know what the Pivot System is. |
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