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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:17 am Post subject: Playing Double High C |
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Agree or disagree?
Every player who plays a double high C is doing it exactly the same way as anyone has ever played a double high C. That's because there is only one way to do it ...
Bill Knevitt |
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 2815 Location: Coarsegold, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:31 am Post subject: |
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That would be hard to prove, but I'm pretty sure that everyone who plays that note did not prepare for it the same way.
Some buzz on the mouthpiece, some don't. Some do pedals and some don't. Some use lots of air and some don't.
Some practice for years and years before getting it and some can do it when they are in junior high. Some can do it on any equipment and others can only do it on special equipment. |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
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Avan Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Jan 2012 Posts: 396 Location: Ventura County, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:37 am Post subject: |
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markp wrote: |
Some practice for years and years before getting it and some can do it when they are in junior high. |
The last part of this sentence? when thinking about it ................
is a pisser ......................... LOL
OR ?
Have been blessed .................................... _________________ 1948 Selmer GP
" Man Without an Audience "
Album Release - 2017
" Mi Vida es Una Cancion "
Album release - 2022
USAF 1974-1980 E-4 |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I think in general terms that is true, but not specifically. Confused? In general, to play a Double High C, everybody blows real hard, uses tongue arch to channel the air, and manipulates their lips so as to get a good free vibration while playing the note. But the specific amount of air pressure, exact level of tongue arch and particular lip manipulation varies infinitely between individuals.
I think the best way to develop a good upper register is the same for everybody (i.e. to practice certain exercises that develop the strength and coordination required to gain the "knack" or "feel" of the upper register), though some certainly disagree with my opinion. But I'm right. I always am.
Best wishes,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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jiarby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2011 Posts: 1188
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:59 am Post subject: |
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I disagree... but he is correct that everyone has to get their lips to resonate at the correct frequency to produce the tone.
BUT.. there are loads of different ways guys get to that point. Some have thin squeally sounds. Some have tons of power and projection. Some have complete control (up and down) and can make music in that register while others are splatty youtube arpeggio blasters.
Some are "efficiency" low pressure players, some are IIIB Gorillas.
They can all do the same thing, but in quite different ways.
Last edited by jiarby on Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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trumpetdiva1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2002 Posts: 1423 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:26 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | I think the best way to develop a good upper register is the same for everybody (i.e. to practice certain exercises that develop the strength and coordination required to gain the "knack" or "feel" of the upper register), though some certainly disagree with my opinion. But I'm right. I always am.
Best wishes,
John Mohan |
+1
Janell _________________ Janell Carter
---
Listen to this sample: Michael Haydn Concerto for Trumpet - II (Allegro) -
http://tinyurl.com/hgzhq23
--- |
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BPL Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2008 Posts: 347
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Playing Double High C |
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solo soprano wrote: | Agree or disagree?
Every player who plays a double high C is doing it exactly the same way as anyone has ever played a double high C. That's because there is only one way to do it ...
Bill Knevitt |
I don't know, but this seems to be a subtle deviation from what I read Claude to be saying.. that there are lots of ways to play the trumpet (DHC?), and lots of great players use all of those ways, but all the virtuosos do it exactly the same way.. the right way.. which is contentious enough, but I'd accept this proposition. |
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rich.Graiko Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2010 Posts: 168 Location: brooklyn, new york
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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jiarby wrote: | ...while others are splatty youtube arpeggio blasters. |
the splatty youtube arpeggio blasters! ..any highschool ska bands out there in need of a name? _________________ the BURBANK |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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StupidBrassObsession Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2012 Posts: 1014
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think making this claim about DHC out of context of the full playing machine is the problem.
I think it would be better to say something like "Anyone who can play from Double Pedal C to DHC all day long, plays with a good sound, has good articulation, and all the flexibility he could possibly need, is playing the instrument the right way"
I think what Claude may have been trying to get at was that the exact lip position, tongue position etc may be different for every person, but the general motions and co-ordination of the whole machine will be in the same direction for each person... Who has a virtuoso technique.
There are lots of guys who have a Double C but couldn't play an orchestral excerpt if their life depended on it.
But for the people that can tick all the boxes, the lips will be contracting generally in a similar way, and the tongue will be arching in a similar way, etc.
At least, that's my take on it! |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:51 am Post subject: Re: Playing Double High C |
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solo soprano wrote: | Agree or disagree?
Every player who plays a double high C is doing it exactly the same way as anyone has ever played a double high C. That's because there is only one way to do it ...
Bill Knevitt |
All it takes is consistent practice using methods that are "in tune with nature's requirements. *"
Bill Knevitt
*Ernest Williams _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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Jerry Freedman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan writes:
Quote: | I think the best way to develop a good upper register is the same for everybody (i.e. to practice certain exercises that develop the strength and coordination required to gain the "knack" or "feel" of the upper register), though some certainly disagree with my opinion. But I'm right. I always am.
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I definitely agree with the coordination part but I assume we have all seen the videos of Adam Rapa's student who was getting a DHC at the age of 12. Jeanne Pocius was doing it at that age too. So, if 12 year old girls can play DHCs then its hard to see where strength is involved |
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StupidBrassObsession Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2012 Posts: 1014
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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry Freedman wrote: | John Mohan writes:
I definitely agree with the coordination part but I assume we have all seen the videos of Adam Rapa's student who was getting a DHC at the age of 12. Jeanne Pocius was doing it at that age too. So, if 12 year old girls can play DHCs then its hard to see where strength is involved |
Two points here...
1. It was a Double Bb on the Monette video, just fyi haha
2. She has been mouthpiece buzzing since she was a toddler and started lessons at age 7. 12-7 = 5. I'd say 5+ years of playing with a trumpet teacher father, and what I suspect has been significant amounts of practice doesn't equal no strength.
I'm sure she's developed the 'knack' and plenty of strength to boot!
Same deal with Jeanne! If you read about her she was apparently playing the Arban cover-to-cover on a regular basis by the age of 12 or something like that... So there'd have been some developed strength there, surely? |
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Jerry Freedman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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okay, there was some strength there but not anywhere near as much as an 18 yr old diligently practicing Gordon or doing the pencil exercise and working on a pivot. I gotta believe that whatever strength 12 year girls can develop, the 18 year old can match in a couple of months. Jeanne says its not strength, its balance. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8921 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'm inclined to disagree.
I don't think that Cat Anderson, Jon Faddis, Maynard Ferguson, Claude Gordon, Jerome Callet, Bobby Shew and Wayne Bergeron all approach it exactly the same way.
I find no utility in trying to impose any such blanket statement about such disparate players.
Sure there are some fundamentals in common (something needs to oscillate, something need to hold the bit that oscillates, and something needs to provide and channel the air) but the physical differences of each player and their approaches for doing all that are certain to be different. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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ProAm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 949
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Disagree.
There are tricks that can be used to play a double high C, such as Walt Johnson's Double High C in Ten Minutes, that do not involve Gordon's techique and training.
Perhaps we should define what is meant by the term "play" in the context of a DHC. |
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Jerry Freedman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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I think we can agree that they are all using their lips and blowing through the smaller end. |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Jerry Freedman wrote: | I think we can agree that they are all using their lips and blowing through the smaller end. |
Simply put:
"I try to get the air to go through that little hole, if I can."
Bill Knevitt _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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bike&ed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 1837
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I think we can all agree that their upper lips are all buzzing at the same frequency when they play it (3729hz for DHC I believe)... |
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