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Kamyar Regular Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2015 Posts: 17
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:36 am Post subject: Vincent BACH 1 popularity issue |
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Hi All,
Why BACH 1 mp, specifically "1", not "1X" nor "1C", etc, is not popular? What's wrong with it?
Regards,
Kamyar |
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Ralph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2002 Posts: 881 Location: Delaware
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Thin rim and a huge cup volume. Most people just don't have the chops or care to work that hard. I have one with a Schmitt backbore. Sounds great for 5 minutes and inside the staff. I can play other large mouthpieces without much problems like a schilke 20 or stork 1. The Bach 1 is just too big with an unforgiving rim which gives no chop support at all. I find the rim to be the biggest obstacle. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1891
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:38 am Post subject: |
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The 1 was basically a signature mouthpiece. It was the style of mouthpiece that Vacchiano used. Most people can't use such a large mouthpiece with a thin rim. It is much bigger than a 1C, which is already very large. Bach didn't produce signature mouthpieces, unlike Yamaha, who have made many. Some of them were pretty exotic, and nobody but their namesakes could play them. (Who knows if even they could use them?). |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | Bach didn't produce signature mouthpieces.... |
Sure, he did! He just didn't tell us who he made them for!
Tom (my signature piece is a 10-7/8Q) _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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Kamyar Regular Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2015 Posts: 17
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Ralph wrote: | Thin rim and a huge cup volume. Most people just don't have the chops or care to work that hard. I have one with a Schmitt backbore. Sounds great for 5 minutes and inside the staff. I can play other large mouthpieces without much problems like a schilke 20 or stork 1. The Bach 1 is just too big with an unforgiving rim which gives no chop support at all. I find the rim to be the biggest obstacle. |
As I see, the rim is wider than 7C and thinner than 1C&3C. I'm a beginner and like this mp two much( maybe too soon to understand what's going on with it!),though controling the sound is difficult for me but I feel comfort while tonguing in comparison with 1C or even 7C.
Any suggestin for another mp with this rim size but different cup volume? From another brand?
Your help would be greatly appreciated,
Kamyar |
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Bill Dishman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:08 am Post subject: Bach "straight" 1 MP |
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I love the "straight" 1 mouthpieces. Have been using this model with variations of back bore and throat for years. I like the sound and actually have better range with it as it gives my lips room to maneuver.
My NY "1" is a little different from the more recent 1's in the rim shape and diameter. I like it better than any other mp.
Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida |
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Kamyar Regular Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2015 Posts: 17
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Bach "straight" 1 MP |
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Bill Dishman wrote: | I love the "straight" 1 mouthpieces. Have been using this model with variations of back bore and throat for years. I like the sound and actually have better range with it as it gives my lips room to maneuver.
My NY "1" is a little different from the more recent 1's in the rim shape and diameter. I like it better than any other mp.
Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida |
NY "1" or Staright "1", how could I find out which model I have got, and what are differences?
Thanks,
Kamyar |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:47 am Post subject: |
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If your mouthpiece indicates Bach 1 only, you have a huge "modern" Bach 1 mouthpiece.
If it indicates Bach New York 1 or Bach Mt. Vernon 1, you have an older, smaller version. Even these smaller (although still very large) mouthpieces require considerable chop strength to fill and play with any authority.
The modern Bach 1 model is wider in diameter, has a much sharper, narrower rim, has more cup volume, and it is even more difficult to control.
For many players, even skilled and experienced players, it is too big and uncomfortable to consider.
Here is a look at the markings on Bach mouthpieces over the years.
http://bachloyalist.com/mouthpiece/mouthpieces_variations.htm
Look here to compare the Bach 1 models. (And others).
http://kanstul.com/mpcJN/Compare/CompareJRFF1.html
There are larger mouthpieces than a "modern" Bach 1, such as the Schilke 20, 20D2d, 22, and the gigantic 24, but not many.
R. Tomasek |
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Kamyar Regular Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2015 Posts: 17
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | If your mouthpiece indicates Bach 1 only, you have a huge "modern" Bach 1 mouthpiece.
If it indicates Bach New York 1 or Bach Mt. Vernon 1, you have an older, smaller version. Even these smaller (although still very large) mouthpieces require considerable chop strength to fill and play with any authority.
There are larger mouthpieces than a "modern" Bach 1, such as the Schilke 20, 20D2d, 22, and the gigantic 24, but not many.
R. Tomasek |
Thank you,
Mine,it indicates "VINCENT BACH CORP.1 " .
About Schilke mps you've mentioned, which one is closer to BACH 1 from rim point of view?
Regards,
Kamyar |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:38 am Post subject: |
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The Schilke 20 is about as close as they get. It doesn't have quite the cup volume and is not quite as wide, but has a larger 26 throat and a slightly larger back bore.
It is a very, very open mouthpiece and requires chops of steel and complete wind control.
Check out the link to the Kanstul Comparator. Warburton has some very, very large mouthpieces in their 1 size.
R. Tomasek |
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Big Dave88 Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 479
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Actually, a Shilke 22 is closest to a Bach 1.
The 20 is closer to a large 1c.
The 20d2d is LARGER than both the 20 and 22.
Speaking form personal experience here.
I played a Schilke 20 for quite sometime several years ago, and experimented with all the huge mouthpiece offerings without going custom. Even dabbled on a few 20d2d's, but it was way more work for the level of sound you get. Law of diminishing returns I suppose. I still use a 20d2d from time to time, but ONLY from time to time! _________________ "Bud didn't worry about this..."
-Barenboim |
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ewetho Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 1264 Location: Kankakee, IL
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Big Dave88 wrote: | Actually, a Shilke 22 is closest to a Bach 1.
The 20 is closer to a large 1c.
The 20d2d is LARGER than both the 20 and 22.
Speaking form personal experience here.
I played a Schilke 20 for quite sometime several years ago, and experimented with all the huge mouthpiece offerings without going custom. Even dabbled on a few 20d2d's, but it was way more work for the level of sound you get. Law of diminishing returns I suppose. I still use a 20d2d from time to time, but ONLY from time to time! |
That is funny both of my 20D2d mouthpieces are smaller in cup diameter and rim outside diameter (narrow round rim some equate to playing the end of a soup can, I call comfy) than my 20 but the 20D2d is deeper and bigger backbore. I am sure the rim is also confusing the issues. I get much better tone from the 20D2d than a standard 20. Wanna have some fun try it with a 22 throat!!! _________________ Kanstul Chicago 1001
CG Personal
Schilke 20D2d
Schilke 20D2d 22 throat |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Schilke mouthpieces are based (roughly, anyway) off New York and some Mt. Vernon Bach mouthpieces.
The OP asked which large Schilke was closest rim wise. The 20 rim does have a similar shape, but that is about it.
The 20D2d is certainly bigger than the Bach 1. That is the Georges Mager model and is very, very hard to play for just about anyone.
I have tried all those giant Schilkes. The biggest I can play for any extended period of time is my 45+ year old 19.
I tip my hat to anyone who plays those monsters! I know the late Wilmer Wise played on a 24 for some time.
R. Tomasek |
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Bill Dishman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: Schilke Large mp's |
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I take a stab at the Schilke 24 trumpet and cornet mp's at home in practice once in a while. They "eat" me alive.\
Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida |
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musicman0097 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2012 Posts: 601 Location: SF Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I tried a modern Bach 1. Never again. WAY to big for me. It was fun to mess around with and see what sounds I could get. _________________ Matthew Porter
"There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, learning from failure"- Colin Powell |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:34 am Post subject: |
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I played on a Bach 1 from 1988 to 2002 with a brief spell on a Schilke 20 in 1994. Here is my take on it:
If you are in regular practice then it is a solid option for orchestral players. Because I didn't do much playing for a few of those years It allowed my embouchure to spread out resulting in a chop rebuild becoming necessary. I should have moved to smaller mouthpiece.
For people looking for a big sound who don't do a lot of practicing it might be better to look at deeper mouthpieces rather than wider. Bach 6 or 3 might be more helpful. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Kamyar Regular Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2015 Posts: 17
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:38 am Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: |
For people looking for a big sound who don't do a lot of practicing it might be better to look at deeper mouthpieces rather than wider. Bach 6 or 3 might be more helpful. |
And about the rim, Bach 3 or 6 , are they just the same as Bach 1?
Thanks, |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:40 am Post subject: |
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No, they are significantly smaller and easier to manage.
I was playing 3 to 5 hours a day when I started on the Bach 1. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1891
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Kamyar, If you are a beginner, you shouldn't be playing a Bach 1. Get a middle of the road mouthpiece, like a 6C, 5C or 7C, and then forget about mouthpieces. Then get to work. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8925 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Vincent BACH 1 popularity issue |
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Kamyar wrote: | Hi All,
Why BACH 1 mp, specifically "1", not "1X" nor "1C", etc, is not popular? What's wrong with it?
Regards,
Kamyar |
Not quite what you asked, but Bach 1 is one of the bigger pieces made and an argument can be made that they don't make many as big or bigger because statistically few succeed with them. And to be popular a piece it would need to work for a relatively larger percentage of players. Therefore by definition the Bach 1 isn't going to be popular. I'd argue that unless you have reason to believe your needs are on the fringes of the bell curve that you shouldn't spend too much time worrying about pieces this size. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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