Tone - horn or player

[DoubleEagle]

Years ago, I started as a beginner on my uncle's Blessing cornet. In high school, I moved to a Selmer Signet trumpet, then to a Strad, and finally to a Benge CG. I'm wondering if people have any thoughts about how a player's tone and it's concept is related to the instrument he starts on. It's always been my opinion that the horn I started with influenced the way I play today. My tone has always been a little more mellow than most, and occasionally has brought comments (always good.)

Granted, other choices will have an impact, but could horn choice, mouthpiece choice, etc. be related to maintaining one's "sound" - the one developed fairly early? When I was a regular player I used a Bach 1C, even doing screamer stuff. Until recently, I've never had more than one regular horn to play, so comparing how I sounded on different instruments wasn't something I thought much about. But I wonder if that old Blessing is still influencing my playing today. Where does a player's sound originate? It might have to do with what I listened to as well.

Thoughts?
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[John Mohan]

I think the resultant tone a player has is influenced both by the (present) horn he or she is playing, and also the player's personal concept of what the tone should sound like. I don't mean to say that one can on any given day decide to play brighter or darker (though some of the great players can adjust their tone instantaneously for certain styles of playing), but rather, the player through listening to other players he likes, over a long period of time and practice, develops his tone to fit his perception of what he wants to sound like.

Concerning the development of that player's concept of tone, one of the influences could be the trumpet or cornet the player first started playing on as a beginner. But I think as time marches on, that early influence would diminish in significance.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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[jadickson]

Everything Mohan said. And, since the lips are part of the instrument, it stands to reason that the shape / size of a person's lips is a factor. Teeth structure too.

It's an equation with over 100 variables.
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[DoubleEagle]

I just remember thinking at a relatively early stage that I made a particular sound, and that it wasn't the same as what my friends made. I know that different horns will bring their own changes to my sound. I also am toying with a dramatically different mouthpiece a little right now, a Rudy Muck 17C that makes a huge difference in the brightness on my Benge. Not "my" sound at all. I have to decide if I like it enough to use it. It's gonna take some getting used to.

On the other hand, I just picked up a used Getzen 381 cornet, thanks in part to thoughts about Getzens posted here. It may be a student horn, but outside of a "little" more back pressure than my Benge, I love it. It blows in tune and has a great tone all the way down to the bottom. I just had a chance to go head to head with a couple other cornets, and all other things being equal, it blew them away. One was an Olds Super. I don't remember what the other was (a "Master" something the sales guy made a fuss about), but both were vintage horns. Neither were full-bodied below low C. The Olds had more resistance but blew better in tune. I'm using a Bach 3C, which was too small for the Olds, BTW. It went into the receiver way too far. Anyway, even the sales guy could tell which horn sounded better.
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[Bill Ortiz]

Both...
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[razeontherock]

I started on an Olds Recording cornet, and I think the muscle memory from those formative 3 years ending in 1978 still affects me today. We can alter our sound concept deliberately by listening to players we want to sound like. that will bring a certain something to the table no matter what equipment we play, but the metal will matter.

[Pete]

I was fortunate to be one of those young trumpet players that got to listen to Doc and Snooky on a nightly basis with the Tonught Show with Johnny Carson. Although I have listened to a lot of Maynard, the sound concept that I try to emulate has always been from the Tonight Show era. Some horns make it easier than others to accomplish the sound in my mind.

Pete

[DoubleEagle]

I saw my first Olds recording cornet Tuesday. I gotta say I don't know why we even bother with 1st and 3rd valve triggers. Why not just lower the pitch of the whole horn any time something is a bit high like this horn does? That's a really neat instrument.
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[shofarguy]

I like what John wrote. There was a subtle thing in his reply that I think has much more to do with a person's sound than his brief phrase would let on. It is that we strive for what we think we should sound like. In other words, we hear ourselves a certain way in our heads and a certain way behind the horn while we play.

I have found that I have a sound that I've grown accustomed to hearing (what the OP refers to) and I have to learn, as best I can, what that actually sounds like to listeners. Then, there is the sound I hear when other more accomplished players perform. I might try to emulate that, but what is it supposed to sound like from behind the bell? If I try to sound like someone else, chances are that I will misinterpret what I'm hearing, as I play, and get it wrong.

What I have done is to listen to advice from players like Pops McLaughlin, Flip Oakes, Nate Mills, Peter Bond, John Poper, and Harry Kim and the sounds that I like, such as Harry James, Jerry Hey, Harry Kim and Arturo. Then, use the techniques they espouse and see what develops. Over time a sound has emerged that is pleasing to me when I get the chance to hear it coming back to me from the room, that others compliment. Finally, I try to memorize how that tone sounds and feels to me and memorize what I do to produce it. It's my sound.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Pops]

I have a "Sound" in my head that I think should be "The" Trumpet sound (General Commercial one and a different General Symphonic sound and a different one for Lead and for Ballards, and for Bach and for Wagner and for Mozart and for...)

The shape of the bell and thickness of the bell and the temper and the bracing and the material........... all add to the general sound color of the trumpet.

I as a player then has to make changes in my approach to make the sound that I want come out of the horn.
That said players often have a lead horn and a this horn and a that horn. A few different bell designs, tapers, materials... so that the player has an easier job.

If you are asking about richness, resonance... that is the player.
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[chuck in ny]

for me the horn has nothing to do with it as it's a mental concept. i always had a chet baker genre sound in my head.
starting in on the trumpet i went through a few horns because they didn't allow a sweet tone. this is pretty common for hardware. the trumpet wasn't built specifically for ballads as it's a fanfare instrument. so right there the stuff i started on had nothing to do with what i wanted to do with them.
there are horns in each general sound category that are for that type of playing. i'm not sure that starting on a lead player's horn will turn a person into one.
you play a trumpet because you heard something somewhere and it stuck in your head even if you don't have the memory of what and when it was. the player above who listened to doc et al, he's pretty clear about his influences.
i don't think you can change someone's musical taste very easily.

[bach_again]

Definitely more player than horn.
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[Nonsense Eliminator]

The first trumpet will influence how you sound, but so will every other trumpet you hear or play. Sometimes certain horns will stick with you more than others, but not always in the same way for each player. I know lots of people who started on cornet who have very mellow, rounded trumpet sounds, perhaps because their cornet sound concept transfers over to the trumpet. I also know lots of people who started on cornet who have quite brilliant sounds, perhaps because on cornet, they found the mellowness came naturally but the brilliance needed to be created by the player. Same first instrument (in some cases, I suspect, exactly the same first instrument) but quite different results.
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Richard Sandals
NBO

[razeontherock]

[Shipham_Player]

Ears 95% - what you listen to and like comes out of your horn.

The horn/mouthpiece certainly influences it the sound comes from you.
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[Pete]

[pocketmaster]

Head shape and ear anatomy

[sethoflagos]

[pocketmaster]

I vote player more so than horn or mpc

[ewetho]

While the player is first and foremost in the equation, by no means discount the mouthpiece and horn. I had a horn back in high school that had a very light Bell and while my first three years everyone loved the tone when I got to Florida it was absolutely hated by my band director. Not for being thin weak or anything just the overall tone was way to bright. So I bought a student model Bach and he immediately heard it stopped the band as he had done before where it sucked and commended me on how nice it sounded.

The first time I got to play a CG Benge I immediately knew the sound and was at home that instant. It was the sound of my old horn. I still hate a Bach 37 sound probably duento that moment in Florida. I like the 25 Bell though.

Also ilke the B and D cup Bach mouthpieces but dislike C cup pieces. Looking at Warburton they compare both B and D cup backbores to the Schilke D backbores. Being that my old marching and concert band mouthpiece was a 20D2d and honestly still is a favorite. So for me I think I am more Backbores sensitive than most. Heck even CG personal and CG 3 are good and I like the 4 & 5 backbores from Giardinelli but not the 3 and it does not mater if on the 3V,VM, or VS cups.

So horns and mouthpieces can compliment the player or be a detriment try and choose wisely.
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