| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
shakuhachi
Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2012
Posts: 195
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:30 pm Post subject: Callet vs. MF embouchure |
 |
|
....following the suggestion in another thread "mouthpiece" and open a new thread:
| Quote: | shakuhachi wrote:
Quote:
Interestingly Jerry Callet talked about maintaining the unfurled top lip in his 1971 Trumpet Yoga. I think it's an idea that he let go of in any subsequent materials, but it's still interesting. Making the connection of the similarity between Lynn's Maynard Protocol and Trumpet Yoga makes my mind wander when I see this photo:
.....does anyone have more information about the similarity of MF type embouchure and the Callet type embouchure?
I have experienced that kind of more forward tonguing is very helpful when using MF-style mouthpiece/embouchure - I am currently tonguing even between the teeth with tip of tounge permanently touching bottom lip and bottom teeth.
Does anyone know more about what kind tonguing Maynard was doing?
May I suggest we start a new thread in the Callet forum about this? Just so we don't derail this one completely... |
I own "Trumpet Secrets" and took some ideas from it and did experiments using my MF style mpcs - currently mostly the Ingram Vintage Maynard.
Additional to my above questions I would be interested about some opinions about using smaller mpc ids with the TCE, or better said: forward/between the teeth articulation or if going smaller does not work with this kind of embouchure.
Regarding Maynard: my close optical observation of his playing embouchure suggests at least a "forward tonguing" if not a TCE like tonguing and it is very interesting for me, that in his early publication Trumpet Yoga he told about unfurled top lip as Lynn teaches too etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jerry has long been one the biggest advocates of smaller mouthpieces. He's a fan because they make life behind the horn easier and greatly aid endurance. And, he can't stand to hear strain in the sound out front.
He's also a big proponent of smaller throats so players will be restricted from forcing notes by blowing more air. His SC mouthpieces use 29 throats. And he suggests never go bigger than 26. Roger Ingram uses 30 throats on his similar designs.
It's interesting that Jerry's and Maynard's designs both came from very similar Calicchio mouthpieces. Jerry's original was was made by Dom for Charlie Shavers. I'll have to check out Roger's variations when I get a chance. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trumpetplanet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 543
Location: Bristol, UK
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have found that using a MF style mouthpiece really engages my stomach muscles to compress the air more. This feels good at the time but when I switch back to a more normal mouthpiece I find that I am overblowing a lot.
If I only ever needed to make the sound that I get with the MF piece then I might stick with it for longer and develop more, but for me it's not practical.
My comments in the other thread were simply to point out the correlation between the two methods in using unfurling of the lips to play. In the case of MSC/TCE we unfurl to play the pedal notes in order to get the sensation of a thick lip that you can then carry into the normal playing register. Essentially the lesson here is that we do not pull the lips apart to change the pitch of the notes or use tight mouth corners.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rothman
Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 329
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Callet vs. MF embouchure |
|
|
| shakuhachi wrote: |
Regarding Maynard: my close optical observation of his playing embouchure suggests at least a "forward tonguing" if not a TCE like tonguing and it is very interesting for me, that in his early publication Trumpet Yoga he told about unfurled top lip... |
Embouchures at first glance seem very different, in terms of MF far off to the side and unfurling heavily, which did seem to influence Jerry's early Yoga book. Maynard's more open middle register indicates he did not always have his tongue up near the teeth because his natural gifts were so great imo.
The early 50's embouchure is forgotten, because the drunk caused harm when he slammed the bell, cracked his teeth, and worse, caused scar tissue to form unfortunately. Caps were brought in, shaped out of proportion to his previous teeth. All this meant he had to work around things...unfamiliar to him.
Lynn is a powerhouse, but I've never heard anyone other than Jerry repeatedly play the extreme upper register in a manner similar to Maynard and----> and taking endurance to parts unknown..
____
_____
_____ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
It does not matter in the least what an individual player's lips look like. The visual aspects of an embouchure are the result of that individuals anatomy (lip size and shape, teeth size and shape, maxilla and mandible size and shape, etc.). Obsessing about such drivel is a complete waste of time.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| trumpetplanet wrote: | | I have found that using a MF style mouthpiece really engages my stomach muscles to compress the air more. |
The "stomach muscles" are smooth muscles of the parasympathetic system and therefore are involuntary. They manipulate the stomach and are involved in the mechanical digestion of food. Some of the skeletal muscles of the abdomen do aid in forceful exhalation but they are only ancillary to the main muscles of exhalation, which are the internal intercostal muscles, particularly the posterior region of the internal intercostals (the part in the thoracic and upper lumbar areas of your back). The abdominal muscles' job mainly is to keep the viscera in place against the tremendous thoracic pressure being generated when the internal intercostals compress the rib cage.
If you keep your chest up in a position of good posture as you blow, you'll engage all of the available muscles and blow with maximum efficiency, no matter what mouthpiece you play.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Getting an A in my A&P class this semester. That makes me dangerous... 
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rothman
Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 329
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
'Unfurling' as highlighted in Trumpet Yoga was brought up...which for better or worse took place after the scrutiny - study of physical characteristics of many great players that did such a thing.
Last edited by rothman on Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trumpetplanet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 543
Location: Bristol, UK
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John Mohan wrote: |
The "stomach muscles" are smooth muscles of the parasympathetic system and therefore are involuntary. They manipulate the stomach and are involved in the mechanical digestion of food. Some of the skeletal muscles of the abdomen do aid in forceful exhalation but they are only ancillary to the main muscles of exhalation, which are the internal intercostal muscles, particularly the posterior region of the internal intercostals (the part in the thoracic and upper lumbar areas of your back). The abdominal muscles' job mainly is to keep the viscera in place against the tremendous thoracic pressure being generated when the internal intercostals compress the rib cage.
|
It appears that I my meaning needs more explanation.
Firstly, I'd like to acknowledge that I recognise Claude Gordon's teaching in what you've said here and just say from the off that it's a path that personally I have chosen to move away from. That doesn't mean that others won't value what you've said.
When I tentatively used the words "stomach muscles" I should have said that I use muscles in my abdominal area to draw inwards, thus adding pressure to my lungs from beneath. This is the same technique that is talked about by Roger Ingram, Bobby Shew and Lynn Nicholson. Jerome Callet also talks of slightly pulling inwards in the area below the rib cage.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trumpetplanet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 543
Location: Bristol, UK
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John Mohan wrote: | | If you keep your chest up in a position of good posture as you blow, you'll engage all of the available muscles and blow with maximum efficiency, no matter what mouthpiece you play. |
But if you blow into a big mouthpiece it'll certainly feel very different to a small one and you may find that one makes you push harder than another depending on that physical sensation. It's about balance.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shakuhachi
Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2012
Posts: 195
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
..thanks for the answers so far!
| Quote: | John Mohan wrote:
It does not matter in the least what an individual player's lips look like. The visual aspects of an embouchure are the result of that individuals anatomy (lip size and shape, teeth size and shape, maxilla and mandible size and shape, etc.). Obsessing about such drivel is a complete waste of time.
|
I think the gap between sense and nonsense always seems to be very very small....
we are all only sharing opinions (not THE TRUTH!) - hopefully only about own observations and own experiments; in that regard nothing is wasted!
And trying to learn from the greatest - even when they have passed away - should be worth an effort too.
So we have eyes and ears to learn from them and we can try to simulate - that is a good established and proved learning procedure.
If one could ask whomever one likes soundwise - those are the lucky ones. But even then one can struggle if the queried is not able to tranfer what he is doing so perfectly in detail - the latter are widespread in trumpetworld only a few will remain.....
If visual aspects only were results of the anatomy of an individual we would loose the path of our own efforts in trying to change our behaviour because we are fixed.
It may be the other way around: simulate some observed behaviour as exact as you can and you will get similar results.....does this not make more sense? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John Mohan wrote: |
<Inappropriate promotion in a dedicated forum deleted by moderators.>
|
Okay, I don't get this. All I remember writing was that what I've learned in A and P class confirms that what Claude taught me regarding the muscles used in breathing was correct. Did I write something else I'm not remembering that somehow was promoting something?!?!
(A yes or no answer would suffice, but if the answer is yes, I respectfully request a PM letting me know what I wrote so I'll be sure not to write it again).
Last edited by John Mohan on Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John Mohan wrote: | | The abdominal muscles' job mainly is to keep the viscera in place against the tremendous thoracic pressure being generated when the internal intercostals compress the rib cage. |
Gotta keep that viscera in place! (roughly akin to Rage Against the Machine's "Gotta Keep "Em Separated?)
Um, what's a viscera, and why do I want to keep it in place? Seems awfully restrictive. Poor viscera, being kept down by the man.
| John Mohan wrote: |
Getting an A in my A&P class this semester. |
Congratulations Dr Mohan! So that's what, Arts and Practice? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| In attempting to quote the "inappropriate content" claim, I accidentally edited and deleted the stuff I wrote before that I didn't mean to delete. (I was attempting to write a new reply, not edit the one I had written. Opps! Oh well, it's gone now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| razeontherock wrote: | | Congratulations Dr Mohan! So that's what, Arts and Practice? |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rothman
Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 329
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Note, both Jerry and MF were typed 3B as it relates to Reinhardt classification.
1977 or so...at the pinnacle with his chops.
[/img]
____
Last edited by rothman on Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8911
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| razeontherock wrote: | | Gotta keep that viscera in place! (roughly akin to Rage Against the Machine's "Gotta Keep "Em Separated?) |
That's actually by The Offspring. Great song.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pops
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 2039
Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John Mohan wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: |
<Inappropriate promotion in a dedicated forum deleted by moderators.>
|
Okay, I don't get this. All I remember writing was that what I've learned in A and P class confirms that what Claude taught me regarding the muscles used in breathing was correct. Did I write something else I'm not remembering that somehow was promoting something?!?!
(A yes or no answer would suffice, but if the answer is yes, I respectfully request a PM letting me know what I wrote so I'll be sure not to write it again). |
What Claude told you was partly correct.
It covers 90% of playing but it is NOT all that is available for our extremes.
Pulling the lower 1/3 of the abdominal muscles in toward the spine (very quickly) is a powerful technique that is used by a great many high note players. Brisbois used to teach this as did Maynard, Don Jacoby and me.
it doesn't end there:
Once we have pulled in as far as possible then we can crunch (as if doing a situp even while standing or sitting. This if done very quickly exerts yet another exhalation. Also done by many high note players. Seen easily on the thin ones like Driscoll.
Neither of these were describe by you, by your fancy muscle chart or by Claude Gordon and yet these 2 are the most effective ways of adding breath support in the upper register.
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1962 Conn 38a
Regular Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2015
Posts: 53
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
deleted
_________________
1962 Conn 38a
and other vintage instruments
Last edited by 1962 Conn 38a on Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
<<both Jerry and MF were typed 3B as it relates to Reinhardt classification.>>
Don't know the whom or how, but I suspect this is a confusion of apples and oranges. Remember, while following traditional lip-to-lip techniques ala Reinhardt Jerry could not play a decent high C. However, by contradicting essentially everything Reinhardt taught, Jerry was able to promptly develop one of the strongest and most powerful embouchures ever.
Agreed, Jerry was likely playing downstream when nothing worked for him. However, after viewing and discussing the lip grip that successfully worked for him, I strongly doubt he has been a downstream since. Regardless, there should never, ever be a pivot/slide while working through Jerry's "beyond Reinhardt" techniques. Per Jerry, compress the air stream, never line it up. Best wishes to all, Kyle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rothman
Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 329
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tptguy wrote: |
...Remember, while following traditional lip-to-lip techniques ala Reinhardt Jerry could not play a decent high C. However, by contradicting essentially everything Reinhardt taught, Jerry was able to promptly develop one of the strongest and most powerful embouchures ever.
|
Interesting... and if I can question one thing : Although Jerry asserts he "could not play a high C" at the time of the Reinhardt lessons - however short the time period of lessons were, is not known. In describing his early development, he said, "by the time I was 30, I was hitting high G's.." There was a lot of movement in his transition to upper register demos back then, resembling a pivot of some type.
Consequently....if staying the course with lessons a year or more..would he have achieved a solid high C ? It seems likely, knowing of such a long list of great players associated with the old man.
Reinhardt categorized several tongue positions [ 8 ] - one of which highlights a player's tongue positioned far forward, through the teeth against the lower lip.. Theory being that there must have a 'small seed' or influence upon Jerry in this light. There's really no way to confirm it.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
