Struggling with "Physical Approach" book

[pineapple_tarts]

As a preface: I have a teacher but he doesn't use any CG books. I bought this book mostly out of curiosity and due to some recommendations on this forum.

Lesson 7 of the book asks the player to play arpeggios up to G on the staff. Claude Gordon's instructions are to say "Tee" and blow more air as you ascend. However, when I try this I still can't reach the upper notes (sometimes I can hit F but usually it's lower).

Questions:
1. Is this an indication that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong in my setup?
2. Should I keep trying this exercise everyday or skip ahead?
3. How do teachers teach with this book?

I've seen people comment that they use this book with their students to build range. I'd like to hear what teachers do when they teach out of this book. The range jump seems incredibly sudden (the exercise before this has you play chromatic scales up to a 3 space C).

Thanks!
-El

[StupidBrassObsession]

You just haven't got your tongue position right yet... Are you anchor tonguing?

The eee movement is forward in the mouth, and its the front 1/3rd of the tongue arching, not the back parts.
You blow air across the tongue.
The more you raise the tongue, the more resistance it creates, so you need to blow *a little* stronger as you ascend if you want the volume of sound to stay the same.

It takes a while to get used to and find the balance between tongue movement and air. Just keep working through the book and when you get to the end of it, then you'll be getting the hang of it all

[MikeyMike]

Short answer: The "PA" book by itself probably won't do much good without the "Brass Playing Is..." book to more fully explain the method.

That said, the usual disclaimers apply: IMO, YMMV, believe nothing you read on the internet unless you agree with it completely and to top it off I am not a CG teacher. HTH
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Ahh... that old case smell.

[EricV]

I agree that you should get Brass Playing is no harder than deep breathing for a detailed explanation of how to make this piece of pipe work as Claude said!

Also, I hate the term Anchor tonging used above, as the tongue is anything but anchored when using ktm or k tongue modified, put ktm or k tongue modified into search and read up on it from posts by CG certified teachers, it can be difficult to grasp but when you do, its amazing the difference it makes to all your tonguing.

Look at posts by Jeff Purtle, Bruce Haag , Eric Bolvin or John Mohan for accurate and detailed info

Hope this helps
Eric
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CG Benge trumpet
Yamaha Xeno Cornet

[Bsully]

[pineapple_tarts]

Thanks for the advice! I am anchor tonguing and experimenting with tongue arch. I think my biggest problem is that trying to tongue arch causes the aperture to close up and hardly any air goes through. I'll check out the other lessons in the book as well as Brass Playing.

[John Mohan]

Really, it just comes down to the fact that you need to be patient and develop the feel or knack of how to play those higher notes. They don't really require much strength at all (the average person has more than enough air power and facial strength to play up to at least a High C if they have the feel or knack of it down). Just use that arpeggio exercise each day and go up as high as you can each day. With time the proper development will occur and you'll be reaching the G and beyond. That particular exercise, if it's the one I'm thinking of, where you repeat each arpeggio four times (resting between each time), then move on to the next higher one, is one of the best exercises in that book. It can be used even after you've moved on to the later lessons in the book to work on your range. When you can comfortably play to the highest written arpeggio comfortably, you can continue up beyond what's written.

Lastly, it's best to stop using the term "anchor tonguing". The tongue should never be "anchored" at all, but allowed to be relaxed (never rigid). Keep the tip down below the tops of the bottom front teeth and tongue with the front middle portion against the area just behind the top front teeth. Eee (as in "sea") for higher notes and aw (as in "saw") for lower notes. The correct terms to describe the best way to tongue are K-Tongue Modified (KTM) or Dorsal Tonguing.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Webcam Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[StupidBrassObsession]

Okay, okay, anchor tonguing is a terrible name probably... But so is KTM or K Tongue Modified...
It has nothing to do with K tonguing! Sure, its not the tip that tongues, but you try and get a 'k' sound with the part of the tongue that single tongues when dorsal tonguing... You can't - or I can't!
(Sorry Claude, but I don't get it!)

It just seems like a confusing name. I only use anchor tonguing because I think more people know what it refers to, and if he didn't knkw whag anchor tonguing was, I would have explained about the floating tip when I explained it.

It's just another of those things like "double high g" that people are going to argue about until the end of time. *shrugs*

[John Mohan]

[StupidBrassObsession]

I say this tongue in cheek, but you know, it all depends on what sort of 'anchor' we're talking about

Maybe it's referring to a sea anchor, which is not a fixed thing, but something that floats below the surface and keeps the ship pointed in the right direction?

That sort of anchor makes for a pretty decent KTM metaphor

[mcgovnor]

Original Poster..

In 45 years of working, practicing and teaching trumpet, I've seen many players who have attempted to use the Gordon book and related materials, play worse for the effort.
Here are but a few problem areas I've encountered, with professionals, students, and in my own practice.
1...The lessons , in certain area's of the book, when practiced as directed, are destructive, not constructive. They seem out of a normal progressive order.
2...Playing the pedal tones lower and lower, loudly, injures my lips.
3...Playing the pedal tones, as directed, throws my embouchure completely out of balance.
4...Practicing this stuff, I get double buzzes all over the place.
5...Practicing this stuff, my lips are so spread, a high C is killing me.
6...Practicing this stuff,my middle register isn't reliable. I have no true sound there.
7...When I practice this stuff, I have to be playing or working really hard in order for it to balance out the pedals.
8...I can't time the practice so I can play a gig.
9...I can't find a real center.
10...When I stopped doing this stuff, I didn't miss it.

Some positives..

Alan Rubin: I like Gordon's approach, because he is the only "system" teacher that includes all the great method books.

Anonymous: My endurance is uncanny. I can play, all day. It's like..music by the ton chops.

Anonymous: Nothing else sets my chops up for everything, like this stuff.

As far as tonguing with the tip resting around the bottom teeth..
Many players, and I mean great ones, had to think about whether they articulated this way. Most, said they did, especially in the upper register. These questioned were studio players and heavy act lead players.
It's not an anchor or a modified k . It's simply using the middle of your tongue pressing against the roof of the mouth as an air release valve.
If it works, use it. If it doesn't, don't. One great lead player I discussed this with, said he uses "tee" everywhere on the horn. Hates and can't use the kdorsalanchorreleasevalve at all.
I use both, as needed.

If a lesson bugs you, or a series of lessons is throwing you, or playing the pedal tones ff is hurting you, or playing down to double pedal f# has ruined you, or holding the notes out until you fall over isn't doing it for you..find a few lessons that work for you.
Don't play the pedals as loudly. Don't go down as far. Don't hold the notes out till you die. Don't play hundreds of reps.
Use what you can use, so that your ability to play the horn, improves.
Keep your best interests in mind.
Don't loose a gig or ruin your head, because you think you have to do this stuff exactly as it says.
Plenty of players do it, as it works for them, through experimentation over years. Plenty play great, and construct their own lessons modeled after Claude's concepts.
Keep great brass playing concepts in mind at all times. Apply them to whatever you do. This will help anything you practice, work, FOR you.

[StupidBrassObsession]

Who said pedal tones were supposed to be loud? They're supposed to be a comfortable dynamic, but certainly no where does it say FF for pedal tones.

... As a side note... Do you know if you are, perchance an 'upstream' player? Bud Brisbois also had problems with pedal tones... And double buzzes are a much more common thing for Upstream players I believe.

[solo soprano]

[John Mohan]

Regarding what mcgovnor wrote:

1) I believe he is talking about Claude's advanced book "Systematic Approach to Daily Practice", not the beginner book "Physical Approach to Elementary Brass Playing" that the Original Poster is using. "Physical Approach" doesn't even go into the pedals if I recall correctly, and it's progression is very even and steady.

2) As another full-time professional player and teacher (for 35 years) who has used the CG material and related books throughout that time (meaning Clarke Technical Studies, Colin Flexibilities, Irons Flexibilites, Smith Flexibilites, Schlossberg, Arban, St Jacome, the Sigmund Hering series and pretty much all the other well-known books in the literature that Claude took me through), the only criticisms mcgovnor mentioned that I can relate to is are:

A) Yes, as a working professional, it would be very hard to do the entire routine once it builds up as it does in the Systematic Approach book. But that is not how Claude taught his personal students, and the generic progression in Systematic Approach was targeted mainly at good players who want to become professionals and can and are willing to devote up to about five hours a day of trumpet practice.

B) The Systematic Approach book does build up the material too quickly. At the very least, two weeks should be spent on each Lesson once one gets to around Lesson 4 in the book. Claude toned down the amount of material and the rate at which he built it up with his students in the many years of teaching he did after writing that book back in the late 1950's.

Lastly, I don't believe (John McGovern) that you ever studied personally with Claude. If you had, I think at least the majority of your criticisms of Claude's method would have been alleviated. Many try to use the Gordon material and it doesn't work for them. In my opinion, this is because as thorough as Claude tried to be in the instructions in the book, it's still a lot of complicated material to grasp and most don't practice the material correctly. For instance, Claude would never have a student blasting pedal notes. He instructed us to play them in a full, comfortable volume. Also, he told us stop at Double Pedal C, saying he didn't feel there was any benefit in going lower than that. I should have taken his advice but at one point in my career I didn't, and as a result I hurt my lips once when taking those exercises down to triple pedal C. I had a heavy playing schedule (two musicals because a kid's musical was running concurrently with Hunchback at the big theater in Berlin and I was playing for both shows) and still each night I did my SA exercises. Well, I was sustaining a note somewhere around the F below Double Pedal C and all of a sudden I felt my lip start to split open right where the inner edge of the mouthpiece touches. It felt like a paper cut - holy crap!!! I stopped, but the horn away, and went home and went to bed, scared of what would happen when I tried to play the next day. Fortunately, it wasn't a bad wound, and it healed up over night. I took it as easy as I could for the next few days, and since that day I have heeded Claude's advice about stopping at the Double Pedal C.

When I get new students that have been using Systematic Approach for a while before coming to me, I find that very, very few are actually doing the stuff correctly.

Cheers,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[mcgovnor]

It saddens me to read that what I've shared regarding Claudes teaching would be boiled down to criticism.
Additionally...i suggest "Stupid" re read what I shared, understanding I shared mainly the experiences of many students and professionals over decades, not my experiences. Mine are in there, but not identified as such. As far as the upstream question....wow..
Having used Claudes material for almost 5 decades, what I posted recounts the reactions of many students as well as some of my own experience.
Truth be told, I know as many players who rejected these studies as claimed them beneficial. I've also worked with a number of Claude students, who, though devoted and loyal, might have done far better with something else.
Having met Claude and spent some quality time with him in the early 1970's
I was impressed with the holistic explanation of his method he shared with me, and truly was surprised he wasn't far more dogmatic, givin the impression the books make.
At the time I was doing a good deal.of recording here in NY, as well as live work with acts and shows.
Claudes directives ABOUT HOW and when to practice molded my thinking regarding practice and performance, period.
His optimistic style is infectious and his realism impressive.
Ive found with his studies, as well as with Costello material and Jacobs
material, my performance and that of my students has been most improved by working much of the peripheral according to the day, the gig, the goal, yesterday, tomorrow and the humanity of each player.
The core, fundimental remains unchanged and fixed, immovable throughout
One last thing, as Ive got an early start today.
I only post here, to help players who are having problems. I don't post here for any other reason. I suggest players who have problems find themselves a live teacher, whose primary affiliation method wise, is good brass playing.

[John Mohan]

Hey John,

I'm sorry I didn't address anything but the negative points in your earlier post. More than half your post is devoted to the positives, and while I didn't write anything about that part, it was just because I agree with pretty much everything in that section of your post.

Best wishes,

John

[John Mohan]

[mcgovnor]

Absolutely. CG could not have succeeded as a working player without this mindset in the forefront.
Personally I practiced entire routines, plus ....on days I worked when I"d the time to rest 5-6 hours and re warm up for half an hour with 15 minutes rest before the downbeat..unless the overture killed from note one. Then I play on and off up to the downbeat if possible.

When I was 25..I just did the routines and played cold. I always felt warmed up.

[Dieter Z]

[John Mohan]