Questions about mouthpiece change

Sylvain · New Member Joined: 23 Apr 2016 Posts: 3

Hi, I recently bought a new trumpet (Sonare TRC-800L) which came with a Blackburn Sonare 3C mouthpiece.
I tried to use this new mouthpiece for a few days. Before that, I've always played with a Bach 1 1/2 C.

The 3C seemed more comfortable, it slotted better and I preferred the sound...
But, rapidly, I realized that it might be "too small" for my lips. Now, I struggle to play high notes, it looks like there's no space to vibrate, like my lips are swollen or something.

How can I know whether this 3C is good for me, and I just need more time to adapt?
Should I stick to my old Bach? Or maybe, I could look for another mouthpiece which would be a good compromise?

PS: I can't find the dimensions of this Blackburn 3C, anyone know?

deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

Hello Sylvain, Welcome to TH!
Your question seems fairly obvious to me. "I've always played with a Bach 1 1/2 C." "Now" using the 3c "I struggle to play high notes". Stick with what works. If on the other hand you struggle with high notes on the 1 1/2 C as well, then that is a different question.
the 3C and 1 1/2C really aren't that far apart though diameter wise. The ID of the blackburn mouthpiece is .660 and the Bach is .670. But even small changes in diameter and depth and rim shape can mess you up sometimes.
Just remember what has been said here countless times, a different mouthpiece isn't going to magically give you high notes. If your looking to change your sound with a different piece I would recommend curry mouthpieces. You can keep your same ID and try different types, ie. TC,TF,BC, C cups. For Something more commercial sounding try his 600 series. 70M is the same ID as your bach. And No, I don't work for Curry, just find his products exceptional.

best of luck !

tom

Sylvain · New Member Joined: 23 Apr 2016 Posts: 3

Hi Tom, thanks for your answer!
I'm not changing my embouchure to reach higher notes, I'm really trying to use the one that's best for me.

As I said, I feel much better on the 3C, but when I start going up, my lips quickly stop vibrating. However, I don't have particular big lips and, 3C is not that small.

Is it possible that the 1 1/2C is more "permissive", allowing some bad habits that the 3C wouldn't allow me to have?

I'm saying that, because of this post:
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763

cheiden · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject:

I generally agree with all of Jens's mouthpiece rant. But I would argue that his admonition about smaller pieces requiring a different approach probably doesn't apply to pieces as similar as the 3C versus 1.5C.

What you describe as the "lips stop vibrating" I usually associate with a piece that's too shallow or one with a very high alpha angle. And though I'm unfamiliar with the Blackburn pieces I've not played anyone's version of a 3C that could be described as either of those things. Now that I check the Bach 1.5C does seem to have slightly steeper wall below the rim than the Bach 3C.

It could be that the unfamiliar mouthpiece has caused you to swell and that after a period of acclimation, that could subside.

Here's a link to a comparator to see how some different pieces compare. http://kanstul.net/MPcompare/MouthpieceComparator.html

Here's a link about the "alpha angle".
http://users.actrix.co.nz/mcamilleri/MpAlpha.htm
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

zaferis · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:07 pm Post subject:

A Blackburn 3C is .660 - much like a Bach in size, slightly different rim design - If I'm not mistaken, were designed by Picket who recently bought out Blackburn. (Picket mouthpieces would be an excellent choice too - very popular but if you do so, I'd highly suggest getting assistance through their shop - there are a lot of choices and can be overwhelming)

I'd stay with the Blackburn for a few more days (try to avoid switching back and forth) and see if you adjust - as someone else pointed out the change in size is minimal - I'd guess the change in rim shape may be more of an issue of adjustment.

If it doesn't improve, I will also suggest getting a Curry 3C - in size between the 1.5 and 3 Bach, and a very playable mouthpiece.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

homecookin · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Nov 2013 Posts: 868

What you are experiencing is not uncommon.
Whenever you change mouthpieces there is an adjustment period.
Even though the difference between a 3C and 1/12C is certainly not that drastic,
you should ease into the "feel" of the new mouthpiece by just having short 15
practice sessions on the new piece until you feel comfortable on it. And do not overdo the high range.
I think you have over played on the new a mouthpiece and your lips are slightly puffy.

cheiden · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:24 pm Post subject:

mcgovnor · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:30 pm Post subject: lips

Whatever mouthpiece you are using, remember.
Your lips stop vibrating only when they are not touching and/or are crushed.
The only time notes stop coming out is when there is no vibration, and the lips have to be too far apart for this to occur.
The exception is when they are crushed against the teeth.
There are numerous reasons why this can happen.....

JVL · Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:16 am Post subject:

hello Sylvain

as usual, hard to say without seeing/hearing, but differences in cup shape & depth can justify a time for coordination and "target" the resonant place of each note in a new mpc.
Also, you MIGHT need to open a little bit more your aperture if this new mpc is shallower.
Just suggestions and hypothesis, give it a try

Sylvain · New Member Joined: 23 Apr 2016 Posts: 3

Hi everybody, thanks for the great advices. I tried a little more to get used to this mouthpiece but without success.

I went to a brass shop and tried a Bach 3C... which indeed felt very close to the Bach 1 1/2C and required less effort to adapt. This blackburn is definitely shallower and smaller. It seems that I can't get used to it so I will stick with the 1 1/2 C for now.

I would like to try some Curry mouthpieces but I currently live in Germany, and the only retailer for this brand is in Hamburg, so I will definitely go there some day and have a look

trombino · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:31 pm Post subject:

After buying a new horn I'd wait a couple months before messing with mouthpieces. I'd stay on the 1.5 for a while and get used to the horn.

trombino · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:32 pm Post subject:

After buying a new horn I'd wait a couple months before messing with mouthpieces. I'd stay on the 1.5 for a while and get used to the horn.

Martinharris · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Posts: 236

That 3C just takes some adjusting to, a mouthpiece can take up to a month to adjust to sometimes.
The 1 1/2C is a terrible all round mouthpiece, it really is meant for orchestral playing and nothing else whereas you can play many styles of music successfully on the 3C... If you allow yourself to adjust

Vin DiBona · Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 3:03 pm Post subject:

I am struggling with how some folks think the 3C and 1 1/2C are so similar.
The rims are very different, the cup volume is considerably different, and the blow of each is different.
If anyone bothers to go to the Kanstul comparison site, a look at a NY 3C and the later Mt. Vernon 3C will show a sizable difference. The 1 1/2C has pretty much stayed the same over the years.
I've played both over the years and can easily feel the difference. The 1 1/2C takes more strength to make proper use of it. My GRe65M feels much like a Bach 3C rim but is a hair smaller in diameter. 16.5 vs. 16.6 or so. It feels much like my mid 80s 3C I used for over 10 years.
The cup of a "good" 3C has a shallower first cup and a deeper 2nd cup which makes for a good sound and an easier upper register.
Bear in mind, most amateurs select a mouthpiece for the wrong reasons and struggle to play the larger diameter with more cup volume mouthpieces. A mouthpiece does not have to be deep to be considered a large volume cup.
Then they come to a trumpet forum and get completely confused because they don't know who to believe.
Sensitive players can feel the difference of a human hair in a rim shape or alpha angle. Just because you can play a mouthpiece that has a 15 degree alpha angle does not mean you can play one with a 13 degree
angle.
For those who just might want to learn something about mouthpieces, go here and go to the GR School and start reading.
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/
Whether you like GR pieces or not, this is excellent information you will not find elsewhere and it can be applied to any manufacturers mouthpieces.
The 1 1/2C can certainly be used in areas other than orchestral sections.
Malcolm McNab has used one for many years and plays lead, orchestral, and other styles on it.
Jon Lewis's GR piece is also very, very similar to a 1 1/2C and he can be heard on dozens of soundtracks playing on top of whatever orchestration he has in front of him.
If you are trained enough, a 1 1/2C is a good all-around mouthpiece.
R. Tomasek

Goldplate · Veteran Member Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 152

I too find the 1 1/2 and the 3C to be very differnt mouthpices. I use a 1 1/C on C trumpet and a Schilke 14 on B flat. I find the 3C and 5C nearly unsuable. I find I can be comfortable on a 7C. Use what feels comfortable.

cheiden · Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:48 pm Post subject:

I've played 3Cs that feel almost like 1.5Cs and other 3Cs that feel quite smaller and with less bite than the 1.5C.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

Vin DiBona · Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 4:42 am Post subject:

I base my statement on the Mt. Vernon models which seem to be the pinnacle of Bach's designs. Yes, they were not consistent, but when you do find one that fits Bach's design parameters, you likely have a superb mouthpiece.
How many of you actually know the Mt. V 3C is slightly larger in diameter that a Mt. V 1 1/2C? The cups are also close, but the 3C is a bit smaller.
Go here and line them up. http://kanstul.com/mpcJN/Compare/CompareJRFF1.html
Two mouthpiece manufacturers that I have tried have gotten this right:
Schilke with its 14 and 15B and Laskey with his 65MC and 68MC. I have not tried any Curry models but the early Curry 3C was found to be too big and he changed it.
I have both Laskey models and the 65MC certainly feel larger than the 68MC. The rim shapes are also noticeably different as well and I prefer the 65MC over the 68MC. Both play well, though.
R. Tomasek

mcgovnor · Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 5:29 am Post subject: I

I wouldn't use any on line source of mouthpiece comparison and then draw conclusions based upon it, and then advise according to it.
Mouthpieces are measured by manufacturers in totally different ways.
Interpretation of what, for instance, Bob Reeves offers in his comparisons is sometimes so wrong..so misunderstood it's astounding.
Some runs on mp's yield one result, another run yields another result.
AFA Bach 3's are concerned, the cup is shallower than any c cup in the line. The inner diameter is smaller than a 2 1/2, 2, or any other descending number size. The inner edge was sharper on the Mt. Vernons andnolder Elkhart pieces. It's softer now. They are also a bit smaller id now as well. Thats about it, really.

Vin DiBona · Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 6:19 am Post subject:

You are correct on all points mcgovnor and are one of the few who truly know what is what here.
The only two manufacturers who measure down a specific distance from the high point of the mouthpiece are Marcinciewicz and GR. They both go down 1/32".
Since so many think the Kanstul comparator is the "Bible", I use that as a reference point.
The mid 80s 3C I have is the best one I've ever played and is different from the Laskey, Curry, and any other brand I have played.
R. Tomasek

mlctrumpet78 · New Member Joined: 06 Jun 2014 Posts: 5 Location: Chicago

Hey buddy....

All great advice from what I'm reading. I try to tell me students to think why they want to change mouthpieces. What are you going for? What are you looking to change? If things worked on your other piece then that's the piece to use in my opinion. There is always a honeymoon period in which things just don't feel right and you have to work through that for quite some time before you can rule out a mouthpiece.

I'd say stick with your other piece and let that 3C go.

MC