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trumanjazzguy
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Joined: 18 Apr 2011
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Location: St. Louis, MO…or wherever the Ship I’m on is!
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 Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I also know many players who have strident, pinched forced tones (especially in their upper registers) who play on big pieces.
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Larry Smithee
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 4399
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| dershem wrote: | | Larry Smithee wrote: | | So do larger size mouthpieces (whatever that is) have any value at all? |
Sure! For the people who fit them.
I use a Flip Oakes Extreme on my flugel for some things, and it's great for those. |
I was thinking maybe a good paper weight, but okay. |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| trumanjazzguy wrote: | | As far as shallow mouthpieces not having a good sound, that is the player's bad technique, not the mouthpiece. Chop intrusion in shallow cups ruins the qualities of the mouthpiece. I know many professionals who get VERY BIG DARK FULL sounds on VERY SHALLOW pieces. Prime example, Jim Manley. |
So you think I have poor technique because I can't get a good sound on extremely shallow mouthpieces? What about Arturo Sandoval? Do you think he has poor technique, too? And Adolph Herseth? I guess you must think his technique was pretty poor since he used a Bach 1B.
In my opinion you are misinformed.
I think that (as I wrote) there are exceptions (Jim Manley being one of them). Some players like Jim create wonderful tone with tiny mouthpieces. But most don't. Most players who try to use a small mouthpiece are amateurs who are trying to use them as a crutch to make the higher notes easier.
If you care to look at the players and their equipment pages around the internet, you'll see that in the Orchestral world the vast majority of players play on mouthpiece as big as or bigger than a 1-1/2C (and I don't think it's to cover up bad technique). And even in the commercial world, most play on diameters around that of a Bach 3C, among them Wayne Bergeron, Rick Baptist, Lou Soloff and Jerry Hey. Very few play on equipment as radically small and shallow as that of Jim Manley.
Cheers,
John Mohan
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1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
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Martinharris
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Joined: 10 Dec 2015
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, john's right. Wayne plays everything on a 3C. Oh wait... NO HE DOESN'T!! He happens to play a GR mouthpiece called the "Wayne Bergeron studio mouthpiece"!! If you listen to Wayne play a Maynard solo or a lead trumpet part, his sound will be incredibly fat and loud in the upper register because he uses a high compression mouthpiece; relaxed, open aperture and a fast, focused air stream.
If arturo Sandoval, John Mohan or Adolph herseth Attempted the same Maynard solo, they would not sound anywhere near as good, they would all thin out in parts of the solo and that's because they are playing on the wrong gear and therefore the wrong technique for that particular job.
I know Wayne has used bigger mouthpieces for playing lower parts but the point is, he uses the studio most of the time and he had the ABILITY to play a small mouthpiece without overblowing or bottoming out.
Is your technique "wrong" if you can't play on a shallow mouthpiece? To play with a fantastic, musical sound up to the upper register, no, you can do that on a big mouthpiece, but to play in the extreme upper register with a fat, locked in sound, you need to atleast possess the ability to play on a shallow mouthpiece.
John, you have never played exculively for a month on a shallow mouthpiece because you prefer immediate results. It takes patience and determination to master the art of efficiency.
This has gone on way too long I'm signing out now PEACE 👌 |
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bike&ed
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| I'm pretty sure John worked for years with Claude Gordon to learn the extreme upper register, I don't think he's just looking for instant results... |
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1400MZA
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Joined: 17 Apr 2009
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Location: Martorell [Spain](Europe)
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:29 am Post subject: |
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You thought on equipment. Thought on study and put other things out.
I play in a 1C since 2010 before I played on a 1-1/4 for 2 years anf before on a 7B.
I thing that you have to choice a mouthpiece that is comfortable for you and study. In bad days use your mouthpiece, in good days, use the same mouthpiece and don't think in equipment.
Think on your airstream, jaw, tongue. Try to be sure that you are doing good things with air, jaw, tongue, etc. and the sound will come in every mouthpiece |
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Mike Sailors
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Joined: 30 Oct 2012
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Location: Austin/New York City
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| trumanjazzguy wrote: | | John, I have to disagree with you on this. I find that in the High School and college scene, most players are struggling with a mouthpiece that is either too wide, too deep, or both. Many players only begin improving their technique, range, and endurance after leaving their Bach 3C's and 1 1/2C's behind. Wide and deep mouthpieces let you hide improper embouchure technique and force you to blow harder and let lips intrude into the cup to make the piece work... The kiss of death for any trumpet player is blowing harder to play higher. |
The reason why so many college students suck has little to do with their mouthpiece, even though I'm sure for some it's a factor.
Looks like you're presenting your own journey as everyones. That's not how reality works.
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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There's no big, no wide, no deep, no narrow, no shallow, etc. mouthpiece.
There is ( are) the one(s) you feel comfortable with, feel friendly on your lips, play easily, sound beautiful, allow you to get the job.
And all the specs can change with time and experience, physical abilities, health, etc.
Too many students are struggling with too much large ID mpc, and will never become pro players of they stay on too large ID; that's as true as many players playing too shallow or narrow ID mpc with bad technique not caring for sound, but sacrificing it just for high register. |
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rebus9
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Joined: 25 Jan 2016
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| JVL wrote: | There's no big, no wide, no deep, no narrow, no shallow, etc. mouthpiece.
There is ( are) the one(s) you feel comfortable with, feel friendly on your lips, play easily, sound beautiful, allow you to get the job.
And all the specs can change with time and experience, physical abilities, health, etc.
Too many students are struggling with too much large ID mpc, and will never become pro players of they stay on too large ID; that's as true as many players playing too shallow or narrow ID mpc with bad technique not caring for sound, but sacrificing it just for high register. |
Agreed.
My high school band director tried to get everyone in the trumpet section to play on a 3C, no exceptions. He accepted 7C, frowned on 10-1/2C, and using a JetTone would get you named and shamed.
His motivation was noble, in that with everyone playing a 3C for concerts, tone was good across the board. Problem is many of us couldn't play on a 3C without a constant struggle. 35 years later, I still can't play a 3C without suffering. If I played 2nd/3rd part I could limp along, but certainly not 1st and definitely not lead. Not with my chops/dental/muscular structure.
One size does not fit all.
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Martinharris wrote: | | Yeah, john's right. Wayne plays everything on a 3C. Oh wait... NO HE DOESN'T!! He happens to play a GR mouthpiece called the "Wayne Bergeron studio mouthpiece"!! |
Where did "john" write that "Wayne plays everything on a 3C"? Where did I even write that Wayne plays anything on a 3C?! I've been friends with Wayne since 1985. I've never seen a 3C in his horn. I did write that he plays on a mouthpiece of about the same diameter as a 3C. To be more accurate, it's actually around the diameter of a Bach 10-1/2 to 7C - still not exactly radically small. In my earlier post I had a bit of a mental slip and was thinking of what Rick Baptist plays on (a mouthpiece with a modified version of a Bach 3C rim). Rick plays blazing high notes on that 3C-rimmed mouthpiece. And yes Wayne uses a shallower version for higher stuff and a slightly deeper version for section parts. So do I. But in both cases, the degree of shallowness is not radical nor is the diameter radically small.
| Martinharris wrote: | | If arturo Sandoval, John Mohan or Adolph herseth Attempted the same Maynard solo, they would not sound anywhere near as good, they would all thin out in parts of the solo and that's because they are playing on the wrong gear and therefore the wrong technique for that particular job. |
Apparently you've never heard Arturo play the upper register. Here, have a listen to him playing up to an F above DOUBLE high C on a Bach 1-1/4C:
https://www.facebook.com/andaluciamusicalinstruments/videos/374619932722038/?pnref=story
Try to imagine what he sounds like when he plays up high on his smaller, shallower MV3C (which is not in itself exactly a tiny, shallow mouthpiece). A good example of this is the opening scene of the movie about him, "For Love or Country, The Arturo Sandoval Story" starring Andy Garcia. Arturo does all the playing on the soundtrack of the movie.
| Martinharris wrote: | | John, you have never played exculively for a month on a shallow mouthpiece because you prefer immediate results. It takes patience and determination to master the art of efficiency. |
"A closed mouth gathers no foot." I'm sure there is a similar saying pertaining to writing.
http://s25.postimg.org/98iuir7wv/Trumpeter_John_Mohan_does_his_share.jpg
That picture of me was taken in 1977. Yes, that is a Jet-Tone mouthpiece I am playing. I tried to play that mouthpiece for about 6 months, before moving to a bigger, deeper.... Schilke 14A4A(!) which I played for about another 6 months. I was playing the 14A4A when I first was in contact with Claude Gordon. One time he asked me what mouthpiece I was playing on. When I told him it was a Schilke 14A4A he replied, "I want you to take that mouthpiece in your back yard and bury it!" Though I didn't do so, in retrospect, it was very good advice.
Over the years I have been tempted (swayed) by the dark side and have tried smaller, shallower mouthpieces, sometimes for long periods of time, though I don't publish this fact normally as I don't want to be a bad influence on younger struggling players. I did another 14A4A debacle around 2006. And I remember trying a Reeves 42S back when I was on Cats during the final two years of its 14 year run in Hamburg, Germany. But it never worked out (your mileage may vary...).
The most recent time I gave a small, shallow mouthpiece a long-term go was in 2012 after having to take several months off playing due to a lip injury caused by a dentist. I figured since I hadn't played for a while, my lips might be more willing to accept and get used to a smaller mouthpiece, so when I returned to playing, I did so on a Reeves 42S. After several weeks it was apparent nothing on that mouthpiece for me was going to improve, I went to a 42M for a couple months, then finally a 42C which I played for about a year, right into the first month or two of the run I did of The Color Purple in 2013. Then one day, I decided to try playing the show on my 43C - and everything was instantaneously better. Even after more than a year of trying to play "efficiently" (ha-ha) on smaller pieces, the MOMENT I put the 43C back in my horn, my sound was better, my high notes were louder, and my attacks were surer. When I did the long run of The Addams Family in 2015 I started the run on my 43C. About halfway through I up-sized again using my copy of Arturo's MV3C most of the time, and then near the end of the run I went to the slightly shallower Horntrader 3CS (diameter of a modern 3C, a bit shallower, with a copy or Arturo's MV3C rim contour). Being a little bigger than my 43C, it was easier to get good articulations with, and easier to consistently play the high notes when my lips were a bit swollen on double show days then my trusty 43C was.
I started the run of The Producers I'm now playing on my 43C, then went bouncing between the larger Arturo MV3C and Horntrader mouthpieces. Finally, I recently did what I should have done years ago. I went to Karl Hammond and had him make an exact copy of the rim of the Arturo MV3C and match it up to two mouthpieces he had made for me years ago when I was playing on a Bach 1-1/2C. These two mouthpieces were progressively shallower versions of the 1-1/2C (but neither is particularly shallow). Last week Karl cut them into screw rim underparts and PRESTO! - they matched up perfectly diameter-wise to the MV3C rim he created for me. Now matched to that comfy MV3C rim, they are the BOMB!!!! I had suspected that they would match pretty close to a MV3C rim, as the Comparator shows that a typical Bach MV3C has a cup diameter that is about the same as that of a modern Bach 1-1/2C (but with a wider, more comfortable rim). He didn't need to do any blending - just a little polishing made for a perfect match-up. Whether it's the first show of the week, or the last after double shows, the show is now an easy pleasure to play. That's what I call "efficiency".
Some (few) players do well on extremely small, shallow mouthpieces. Some players (more than a few) do well on extremely large (Bach 1 to Bach 1C) size mouthpieces, especially if classical/orchestral music is what they play. Most players do best on medium size mouthpieces. I think a graph of players and their best mouthpieces of them individually would end up with a bell curve. The individual player needs to figure out for him or her self what is best. But as for a starting point, doctors have a saying: If you're looking out at a field of zebras or horses, they are most likely horses.
Sorry this is so long, but I had a lot of info I wanted to share.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
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rebus9
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:38 am Post subject: |
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What model JetTone?
Just curious-- I've gone through a half dozen myself and none of them "fit" very well. The only one that wasn't an instant fail was a Bill Chase model. Played all summer on it one year. Mine was circa 1981-82 and I believe my friend's was from the late 70s. His totally rocked. After playing on it, I ordered one because it really screamed. The one I got totally sucked. The rim was far more rounded, no bite, high alpha angle, weird shaped cup. Nothing like his older model BC at all. I should have sent it back but I was determined to make it work. I used it all summer before declaring it a lost cause.
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Last edited by rebus9 on Tue May 31, 2016 12:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:57 am Post subject: |
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The point is that even with moutain-shoes, Usain Bolt would still run so faster than all of us.
But with those shoes, he 'd not be qualified for Olympics.
And if he had learned to run with those shoes, he wouldn't have learned the right technique to get to the top level, or just to high level.
when i started on cornet, i was lucky enough my teacher lent me what was the right mpc size, so i was able to play with a very beautiful classic sound, ease, flexibility, and loud above High F at 12 y.o, with a deep V cornet Courtois mpc (unfortunately lost, so i don't remember the number), and i was playing very well til 16 y.o, just before the Prix.
Then, they put me on the 1-1/2C, and it was a disaster for 4 years, til i gone back to cornet with more ease, start practicing seriously, start jazz, practice Gordon SA, and play classical with cornet, and at 20 y.o, professional lead on a 13A4a, then Al Hirt mpc, screaming til High B.
Then i met the great Bobby Shew, and among his teaching, he conciled me to upsize a little bit.
Now, after 26 years of pro playing, i fit from BS lead to more efficient on Ingram Marcinkiewicz. The perfect is in between, that leads me to make Marcinkiewicz a full line of custom mpcs.
So what i mean is that i can play with the right sound for every style with an ID between let's say a Bach 10-3/4 and 10 1/2, only adjusting cup depth, throat and bb.
If i play larger than this, and worse on a 1 1/2 C, i doubt my playing would be at a pro level.
YOU make the sound and the job IF and ONLY IF you have the mpc that FITS YOU.
If you can play like Maurice André on a 10 1/2, play it !!!
On the other hand, don't say Bill Chase played like he did, because he played a 6A4a. If so, try it, we'll see ! 
best |
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EdMann
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Location: The Big Valley
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure if this was mentioned, but rims are important in this regard. I can't downsize unless there's a pretty defined place for the rim on my chops-- I've got reasonably thick ones-- and the fat rim/small diameter really doesn't play for me. 3C is my go to size, about .660 and I've frankly had better success up high with the Shew Jazz, a 3C size, than the Shew Lead, which is like blowing on a shirt button. Took me a long time to get that self-approval, that a slightly larger, defined mpc works, for me.
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| rebus9 wrote: |
What model JetTone? |
I wish I could remember! It wasn't a signature model. I think it had one of the medium rim thicknesses and the cup was shallow and pretty flat-bottomed. It wasn't too hard to turn 1st (section) parts into solos above the rest of my high school concert band with it (between the air ball attacks). I think my band director was pretty annoyed with me a lot of the time, and that mouthpiece (and the 14A4A that followed it) were at least partially responsible. |
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cheiden
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | rebus9 wrote: |
What model JetTone? |
I wish I could remember! It wasn't a signature model. I think it had one of the medium rim thicknesses and the cup was shallow and pretty flat-bottomed. It wasn't too hard to turn 1st (section) parts into solos above the rest of my high school concert band with it (between the air ball attacks). I think my band director was pretty annoyed with me a lot of the time, and that mouthpiece (and the 14A4A that followed it) were at least partially responsible. |
When I graduated from my JetTone MF (cupless wonder), I upgraded to a Schilke 6A4a. It took me a few more years until I got back to a 7C (but just a for a little while).
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NYC-player
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Joined: 03 Jun 2016
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Playing smaller mouthpieces require a learning curve. It takes time to figure out how to play them.
For me, smaller rim sizes and shallower cups DO NOT provide any addition to my range.
However, the DO provide a bit more endurance, easier blow as I learned to use resistance as a tool, and I get a brighter, tighter sound. Which for commercial applications, I prefer.
I can switch to larger rims, but have grown accustom to about a 10.5 C size, and that's my go to size.
If you want to learn to play smaller hardware, pick a smaller piece, and use it non stop for a few weeks. A few hints, do not overblow, when you tire take a break, and don't go into this thinking a smaller piece will be a magic bullet. |
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Re: Arturo on the 1.25C/ double F
You can not knock his musicianship, skill or chops. He is a beast.
But is that the sound I'd want for a commercial setting, or lead in big band? For ME?? Nope. For others?? Maybe.
I think guys gravitate to smaller and shallower hardware to achieve a certain sound that is applicable for certain settings. A huge deep mouthpiece in my experiences don't achieve the sound I'm looking for.
Can it be done on big pieces? Obviously. But should it??? |
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Jet-tone mouthpieces:
Industry standard for decades. They started getting a bad rep in the late 80s and 90s, then all but disappeared.
Guys played them for the "sound". Teachers and haters that could never play them, or guys that were jealous of those that COULD play smaller pieces like Jet-tone are where the bad reputation comes from.
Jet-tone when through some bad periods of inconsistency, granted. Some of the rims were just too sharp, due to under-bite. But some of those pieces were just magical. And in the late for decades some of the most respected players from every style ..big name guys...were Jet-tone players |
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bach_again
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Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:16 am Post subject: |
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NYC, I like your style. Balanced viewpoint, and on the money - IMO.
I had an old Ratzenberger JT small as you like, and wish I'd never switched. I was getting along just fine on it, but conventional wisdom said I had to play big gear. Years of strife. And now I play a Marc Ingram and could care less about the measurements... The feel and resistance is good for me and my playing. I've done some legit playing on it as well... But say nothing 
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Bach-again,
Do the Marc Ingram use a 30 hole like some of his other pieces?? I'm getting some new tops made, but I use Warburton threads, so I can change backbores, but most of them are 27 holes.
I've never gone tighter than 28-29 but thinking of getting new backbores and a couple tops w a 30 hole, then open them up if too tight.
Some of my older 29 hole pieces had a "nasally " sound...but trying some different cups and am curious about going tighter again. |
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