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KianThePlaya New Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2016 Posts: 8
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 12:59 pm Post subject: ... |
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... _________________ Kian The PLaya
Last edited by KianThePlaya on Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Martinharris Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Posts: 236
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Type in "lip strength kurt Thompson" into YouTube. He talks about the tiny muscles that are involved in keeping the focus of the aperture- once those tiny muscles have been exhausted, your playing will be spread and there's nothing you can do.
Using too much pressure can mean that your aperture control isn't correct and by practicing with pops 0 pressure grip, you'll eliminate that problem.
Using less pressure allows you to use a smaller aperture and get the same amount of vibrancy which is a more efficient way of doing things.
Most of your practice should be at the dynamic MP. Too many people play loud all the time and it just sacrifices your quiet playing and gives you a horrible spread.
Work on breath attacks, lip bends, quiet playing, warming up slowly and gently and not just bashing it straight away.
Hope any of this crap helps. |
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trumanjazzguy Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2011 Posts: 403 Location: St. Louis, MO…or wherever the Ship I’m on is!
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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There're tons of people I'd recommend who can teach you about the muscles of the lip and how you should play before you need to fall to the level of KT and his endless douchiness _________________ TPT: Nova LA
CRN: Getzen 1950’s W/5.5in bell
FL: Jupiter 1100R
‘Pieces:
TPT: 34-throat shallow double-cup, Chet Baker’s Custom Schilke, Bach Corp 3, Bach Mt. Vernon 6C, Ken Titmus BF Custom(s).
CRN: NY Giardinelli 7SV.
FL: Yamaha Bobby Shew |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Martinharris wrote: | Type in "lip strength kurt Thompson" into YouTube. He talks about the tiny muscles that are involved in keeping the focus of the aperture- once those tiny muscles have been exhausted, your playing will be spread and there's nothing you can do.
Using too much pressure can mean that your aperture control isn't correct and by practicing with pops 0 pressure grip, you'll eliminate that problem.
Using less pressure allows you to use a smaller aperture and get the same amount of vibrancy which is a more efficient way of doing things.
Most of your practice should be at the dynamic MP. Too many people play loud all the time and it just sacrifices your quiet playing and gives you a horrible spread.
Work on breath attacks, lip bends, quiet playing, warming up slowly and gently and not just bashing it straight away.
Hope any of this crap helps. |
Excellent advice !!!! _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6126 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 3:42 am Post subject: |
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99% of all trumpet problems are the result of improper delivery of the air. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:11 am Post subject: |
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trumanjazzguy wrote: | There're tons of people I'd recommend who can teach you about the muscles of the lip and how you should play before you need to fall to the level of KT and his endless douchiness |
+1 (KT = Kurt Thompson)
If you're serious about the trumpet, get a private teacher. There is really nobody on this forum that can tell you the answer without hearing you play on a regular basis. |
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BBB1976 Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2016 Posts: 134
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:59 am Post subject: what causes lip/embouchure spread? |
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Hi there
Try and build up sensibly in short concentrated sessions.
Stop when tired.
Happy playing |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:10 am Post subject: |
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Here is something to consider:
Mouthpiece pressure itself isn't dangerous, only excess pressure, which is why so many advise against too much pressure. But the truth is, we all need some mouthpiece pressure, at least the minimum needed to form a seal so air doesn't leak from around the embouchure.
Could it be that when you take breaths, you're putting that mouthpiece pressure back into place before your embouchure is set, effectively forcing your chops apart?
If this is the case, it may simply be a matter of coordinating your breathing and the setting of your chops so this doesn't happen, or learning to breathe through the corners. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | 99% of all trumpet problems are the result of improper delivery of the air. |
That's an opinion which can cause as many problems as it can solve... Still good advise though!! _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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DaveH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: |
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A couple things that can affect this situation are:
1. Playing too loudly for an extended period of time. Extended period of time means much or most of the time for a long time.
2. Using a mouthpiece with a cup diameter that is too large. The lips will have a tendency to collapse into the cup.
3. Embouchure technique and setting that favors holding the lips apart rather than lips together. |
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NYC-player Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2016 Posts: 627
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:47 am Post subject: |
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You are still developing as a trumpeter. Your body will tell you when to stop playing, and take a break.
When I was younger, I would over blow, use too much pressure especially when my chops were tired and my chops would do weird stuff.
There is tons of good advice here, from teachers, Internet research etc. and I suggest learning as much as you can from just about anybody that has advice to offer....
Except KT. He had some high chops, as do a zillion other guys. But he has alienated himself beyond repair in the small trumpet industry. And is a loudmouth, possibly psychotic jerk.
I'd keep my distance from that guy. |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:00 am Post subject: |
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NYC-player wrote: | Except KT. He had some high chops, as do a zillion other guys. But he has alienated himself beyond repair in the small trumpet industry. And is a loudmouth, possibly psychotic jerk.
I'd keep my distance from that guy. |
I resisted the urge to "+1" comments to this effect earlier on without adding anything, but this has been succinctly put so....
+1 _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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NYC-player Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2016 Posts: 627
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:20 am Post subject: |
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I've heard some recordings of KT when he was younger. I think his playing has deteriorated as he aged. But when he was a kid, man he sounded great on some of those MF tunes.
That is a dwarfed by his confrontational attitude, crudeness ( which I don't really care about...political correctness be damned) and his diminishing of others to promote himself.
It's a shame, a guy with his ability could and should be a real player, that people want to work with. But that's not the case. Total D-bag unfortunately |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Most of the time it is caused by playing too loud and/or using too much pressure. Try fixing those two first.
Pete |
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jungledoc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2014 Posts: 613 Location: Papua New Guinea
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:50 am Post subject: |
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NYC-player wrote: | ... psychotic jerk. | Please don't demean psychotic people this way. Being psychotic doesn't make you a jerk, it makes you sick. Being a jerk makes you a jerk. _________________ Andy
I'll admit it. It's a TR300, but it wants to be a Strad when it grows up. |
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NYC-player Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2016 Posts: 627
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Can't one be both?? |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6126 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetplanet wrote: | Billy B wrote: | 99% of all trumpet problems are the result of improper delivery of the air. |
That's an opinion which can cause as many problems as it can solve... Still good advise though!! |
How can this be good advice if it can cause problems? _________________ Bill Bergren |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Let me take a shot at this from a slightly different perspective. While it does require some lip strength to accomplish lip to lip compression, the need for this is reduced by some other factors. The lips should be set in an "m" position before the mpc is placed on the lips. This accomplishes a closed embouchure. If a little lip curl is used, this tends to increase the amount of lip to lip compression just by virtue of the curled lips pushing together as air pressure is applied. The lips should stay together in position during a breath, which should be taken through the corners. If you take the horn off your lips, you are going to have to reset again with the "m" and the lip curl before you replace the mpc on the lips.
If you get the mpc on the lips with the lips open and without the curl, it's going to be hard to get them together with just lip compression alone fighting mpc pressure and air pressure. Also, too much mouthpiece pressure with the lip curl is going to bottle up the air and keep you from playing, sort of the opposite of the OP's problem. If you let go of the "m" and the curl and push real hard, there will be an open set and airy or no tone.
So it's certainly possible that an open, airy set results from incorrect habits. There will be less tiredness and tendency toward this of the lip compression and lip curl and amount of air pressure and mpc pressure are balanced.
The info above comes from my reading of Pops McLaughlin's books, which I'd highly recommend for explaining how the embouchure should work. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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hvand Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 358 Location: Chapel Hill North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:12 am Post subject: |
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**All of the usual caveats about Internet advice - get a good teacher, practice, etc**
That said, I have learned things from the pages of this forum. Not all of the advice is worthless.
My embouchure often came apart when taking a breath during a demanding passage. You can figure out if this applies to you by playing through a section and inhaling through your nose. I wouldn't advocate playing this way normally. It's really a diagnostic test. I fixed my problem by bringing my lower lip in when inhaling rather than opening up at the corners.
I hope this helps _________________ Hank van Deventer, Durham Symphony |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | trumpetplanet wrote: | Billy B wrote: | 99% of all trumpet problems are the result of improper delivery of the air. |
That's an opinion which can cause as many problems as it can solve... Still good advise though!! |
How can this be good advice if it can cause problems? |
Well it's true that a lot of people's problems are caused by their use of air. I think that problems can arise from mis-understanding what correct use of air actually is though. A lot of instructors will try to solve it by focusing on deeper breathing but this can easily result in overblowing. Hence it can cause as many problems as it can solve. _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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