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shofarguy
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 Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: | | shofarguy wrote: | The first flugelhorn I ever played -
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One piece of technical information: I learned from Byron Autrey that the dimensions of the bell branch, which goes from the third valve exit port and connects to the bell, are critical to intonation. Back between the Benge 3 & 5 designs and the design known as the 1525, Byron learned the formula of bell branch taper IDs and where they need to happen along the length of the horn. This, from what I can gather, is probably what establishes the small bore size of most successful flugelhorn designs. |
So when dealing with those Chinese made eBay flugelhorns, such as Condor or Hawk, do you think it's bell branch taper mostly at fault for the poor intonation, or is the length of valve tubing simply innacurate? |
In the same conversation, Byron related a bit of Getzen history (Adam will have something to say on this, perhaps) relative to his bell branch geometry. He had helped them with a certain model flugelhorn - not sure he ever said which model or the time frame - and provided the dimensions for the bell branch taper. The prototypes played very well, but once they got into production, there were intonation problems. Byron found that the technicians were cutting the raw branch tube in the wrong place to form the part. It was 5/8" off from the proper diameter on the first cut. So, despite the length being correct, the inner diameters were not and the horn played out of tune. Once their cutting process was corrected, the horn intonation was fine.
I'm no acoustician, but this is just one of several instances of "the right diameter in the right place" that either Byron, Zig Kanstul or Bob Reeves have mentioned to me in conversation.
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bassguy
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | bassguy wrote: | | delano wrote: | | VetPsychWars wrote: | Just because French flügels were smaller bore doesn't mean that German flügels were inappropriate at larger bores.
Tom |
All the German and Austrian flugels (rotary) I know are small bore. |
The Alexanders I looked at on EBay are about .452 |
There is always an exception. Maybe more then one, I was reacting on the statement above in general.
Alexander is famous for french horns not for flugels. |
Really? I know little about the rotaries & Alexanders. Some observations: I had a fascination for the sound of the trpetz section of both the Vienna Phil & Berlin. That was after hearing Carlos Kleibets recording of Beethoven's 5th. Though those DG recordings were over mixed & sometimes surreal. . I made some enquiries & was told those trumpets were Alexanders. So I had assumed Alexander trumpets are common in Germany & Austria. (I had thought that Alexanders were equally noted for trumpets, as well as French horns).
I know that in the mid 70s the BSO wanted its trumpet section to use rotary valve trumpets in German Symphonies & they rejected Alexanders (so maybe they suck & those German orchestras use something else?) The orchestra purchased rotary valve Yamaha's, they performed Bruckner's 5th, then just donated them to the BU music dept.
The trend here in the states in major symphony orchestras has been to use rotary valve trumpets in German style orchestral works. However most american symphony guys I talked to don't like Alexanders. When I was a conducting student I made a trip to see Blomstedt conduct Sibelius' 5th & Ravel's Piano Concerto in G. Sitting behind the orchestra (best seat in Davies' Hall) I could hear the first trumpeter warming up, playing passages of the Symphony. (I had to lean over to see him using a German style trumpet). Later he started playing the intro to the piano concerto in G. In comparison to his rotary valved trumpet which my ears became acclimated to, the piston valved trumpet (c pitched?) sounded small & bright, almost like a piccolo trumpet. Later that trumpeter told me he had his rotary valve trumpet custom made by a New Jersey trumpet maker. He didn't want an Alexander himself. .
Last edited by bassguy on Mon May 30, 2016 1:56 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="delano"] | qcm wrote: | | delano wrote: | To answer the OP: yes there is a lot wrong with 0.460 bore flugels.
It's a cheap way to build a flugel on a trumpet machine and that's it.
For the trumpetplayer who occasionaly has to play flugel it's OK. It's not a real flugel but who in the public knows that and cares?
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And Dave, if the OP likes the largebore flugels, great. I gave only an answer on the OP's question and yes, I am not a fan of flugels in general.. But if the OP likes them, who cares? |
In fact I am not a great fan of the trumpet. I love orchestral music & the trumpet works well in that setting for me, but I didn't like playing it & lost interest (too bright!) an entire evening at a trumpet recital (classical or jazz) is not my cup of tea.
I much prefer the sound of that bastard instrument, & wouldn't mind playing like a poor man's Art Farmer-or even Chick Mangione. I really don't have any real bias in terms of construction per se as I will probably make an internet purchase (on a budget) & will have to make it work. |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: | Really? I know little about the rotaries & Alexanders. Some observations: I had a fascination for the sound of the trpetz section of both the Vienna Phil & Berlin. That was after hearing Carlos Kleibets recording of Beethoven's 5th. Though those DG recordings were over mixed & sometimes surreal. . I made some enquiries & was told those trumpets were Alexanders. So I had assumed Alexander trumpets are common in Germany & Austria. (I had thought that Alexanders were equally noted for trumpets, as well as French horns).
I know that in the mid 70s the BSO wanted its trumpet section to use rotary valve trumpets in German Symphonies & they rejected Alexanders (so maybe they suck & those German orchestras use something else?) The orchestra purchased rotary valve Yamaha's, they performed Bruckner's 5th, then just donated them to the BU music dept.
The trend here in the states in major symphony orchestras has been to use rotary valve trumpets in German style orchestral works. However most american symphony guys I talked to don't like Alexanders. When I was a conducting student I made a trip to see Blomstedt conduct Sibelius' 5th & Ravel's Piano Concerto in G. Sitting behind the orchestra (best seat in Davies' Hall) I could hear the first trumpeter warming up, playing passages of the Symphony. (I had to lean over to see him using a German style trumpet). Later he started playing the intro to the piano concerto in G. In comparison to his rotary valved trumpet which my ears became acclimated to, the piston valved trumpet (c pitched?) sounded small & bright, almost like a piccolo trumpet. Later that trumpeter told me he had his rotary valve trumpet custom made by a New Jersey trumpet maker. He didn't want an Alexander himself. . |
You're making it sound like Alexander is the popular brand for rotary trumpets here in the US. Knowing some people in orchestras, I'd say, others are FAR more common and popular, at least nowadays. In fact, I've never heard much about Alexander rotary trumpets. I have no idea about "back in the day."
I'm no expert, but from what I've heard from other players, Vienna used Heckel's for decades though individual players probably had their own that they used at times. Lechner, Kuhn, Schagerl, Thein, Monke were and are, I think, among the popular makers. Weimann seem to be oft discussed and highly thought of, recently.
Don't get too caught up in numbers like bore size. There are numerous factors that affect the blow and the sound, the bore is only one.
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delano
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bassguy
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | bassguy wrote: | Really? I know little about the rotaries & Alexanders. Some observations: I had a fascination for the sound of the trpetz section of both the Vienna Phil & Berlin. That was after hearing Carlos Kleibets recording of Beethoven's 5th. Though those DG recordings were over mixed & sometimes surreal. . I made some enquiries & was told those trumpets were Alexanders. So I had assumed Alexander trumpets are common in Germany & Austria. (I had thought that Alexanders were equally noted for trumpets, as well as French horns).
I know that in the mid 70s the BSO wanted its trumpet section to use rotary valve trumpets in German Symphonies & they rejected Alexanders (so maybe they suck & those German orchestras use something else?) The orchestra purchased rotary valve Yamaha's, they performed Bruckner's 5th, then just donated them to the BU
music dept.
The trend here in the states in major symphony orchestras has been to use rotary valve trumpets in German style orchestral works. However most american symphony guys I talked to don't like Alexanders. When I was a conducting student I made a trip to see Blomstedt conduct Sibelius' 5th & Ravel's Piano Concerto in G. Sitting behind the orchestra (best seat in Davies' Hall) I could hear the first trumpeter warming up, playing passages of the Symphony. (I had to lean over to see him using a German style trumpet). Later he started playing the intro to the piano concerto in G. In comparison to his rotary valved trumpet which my ears became acclimated to, the piston valved trumpet (c pitched?) sounded small & bright, almost like a piccolo trumpet. Later that trumpeter told me he had his rotary valve trumpet custom made by a New Jersey trumpet maker. He didn't want an Alexander himself. . |
You're making it sound like Alexander is the popular brand for rotary trumpets here in the US. Knowing some people in orchestras, I'd say, others are FAR more common and popular, at least nowadays. In fact, I've never heard much about Alexander rotary trumpets. I have no idea about "back in the day."
I'm no expert, but from what I've heard from other players, Vienna used Heckel's for decades though individual players probably had their own that they used at times. Lechner, Kuhn, Schagerl, Thein, Monke were and are, I think, among the popular makers. Weimann seem to be oft discussed and highly thought of, recently.
Don't get too caught up in numbers like bore size. There are numerous factors that affect the blow and the sound, the bore is only one. |
Actually, I was not implying that American players like or want Alexanders. I am saying that when the trend is using rotary style trumpets for German pieces, & they try Alexander & end up having their rotary valved trumpets custom made. Thanx for mentioning
those other brands. I never heard of them
Please keep in mind that the link to "the guide to fluvelhorns" 1st pr 2cnd reply to my pist, mentioned that the smaller bore can feel stuffy, & I took that info to heart-as it seems to make sense. I will stay open minded & try not to generalize (& as written, I might impulsively order a French style flugelhorn, such as a Cues non). Unfortunately, my options are limited in terms of trying instruments out. Furthermore, after being out of shape for decades, there is no way I can discern the horn has poor intonation, as I won't be able to play a perfect flugelhorn in tune to save my life--how would I know? |
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cheiden
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:04 am Post subject: |
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FWIW I find the flugel to be a uniquely forgiving instrument, especially when compared to the Bb trumpet. I've played some I liked better and some I liked less but in general, I like most. I'd argue that most any flugel from a reliable manufacturer will be a pleasure to play. Just make sure it's in good repair and that you use a quality mouthpiece with the correct taper.
If you haven't played in a while, know that the flugel blows somewhat different than the Bb otherwise the instrument will fight back making for inconsistent intonation and blow. But once you get lined up, then it's all fun.
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bassguy
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | FWIW I find the flugel to be a uniquely forgiving instrument, especially when compared to the Bb trumpet. I've played some I liked better and some I liked less but in general, I like most. I'd argue that most any flugel from a reliable manufacturer will be a pleasure to play. Just make sure it's in good repair and that you use a quality mouthpiece with the correct taper.
If you haven't played in a while, know that the flugel blows somewhat different than the Bb otherwise the instrument will fight back making for inconsistent intonation and blow. But once you get lined up, then it's all fun. |
Yes the timbre is more palatable, & you can do things like slur a bunch of 16th notes in the mannerof of a sax player, & it usually comes off more convincingly than a trumpet. Don't get me wrong, it would be great to develop a legato triple & double tongue like Clark Terry (my favorite) but there are those with far less technique who are fun to listen to. |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | FWIW I find the flugel to be a uniquely forgiving instrument, especially when compared to the Bb trumpet. I've played some I liked better and some I liked less but in general, I like most. I'd argue that most any flugel from a reliable manufacturer will be a pleasure to play. Just make sure it's in good repair and that you use a quality mouthpiece with the correct taper.
If you haven't played in a while, know that the flugel blows somewhat different than the Bb otherwise the instrument will fight back making for inconsistent intonation and blow. But once you get lined up, then it's all fun. |
Yes the timbre is more palatable, & you can do things like slur a bunch of 16th notes in the mannerof of a sax player, & it usually comes off more convincingly than a trumpet. Don't get me wrong, it would be great to develop a legato triple & double tongue like Clark Terry (my favorite) but there are those with far less technique who are fun to listen to. |
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delano
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| A real bass does not make such a lot of noise. |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | A real bass does not make such a lot of noise. |
?????
My bass is powered by a 1000 watt head going into 2 4×10 cabinets. Rethink that. |
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delano
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| I was talking about a real bass. |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | I was talking about a real bass. |
Tell that to Marcus Miller!
But seriously, didn't you state earlier you are not a big fan of the flugelhorn? This is my thread, & conversely I am not a great fan of the trumpe, & am a fan of the jazz flugelhorn, largely for its smooth, forgiving nature. Why be so active in a thread posted by someone whose timbral tastes & musical goals radically differ from yours, & then turn rude when you can simply "help & advise" in trumpet threads? |
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delano
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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So you are the owner of this thread? Great.And BTW what do you know about the "smooth, forgiving nature" of the flugelhorn? Own experiece? Mine is different anyway.
Lot's of people here consider the flugel as some funny big trumpet, I don't care about that and everybody may think what they want of course but I really believe that you should form your own opnion ESPECIALLY on the subject of the trumet vs the flugel. BTW I played bassguitar for 12 years. |
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Ed Kennedy
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bassguy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I had those recordings on LP in HS. I had assumed he used a cuesnon though. |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I had those recordings on LP in HS. I had assumed he used a cuesnon though. |
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delano
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: |
Yes I had those recordings on LP in HS. I had assumed he used a cuesnon though. |
Why? Because you just found out that the small bores sound stuffy? |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | bassguy wrote: |
Yes I had those recordings on LP in HS. I had assumed he used a cuesnon though. |
Why? Because you just found out that the small bores sound stuffy? |
First of all, the "sruffiness" concept came from that link to a buyers guide (reply 1) in which the author warned that the small bores often feel stuffy, not "sound" stuffy per se. That said, it seems to make sense that a bigger bore can blow more freely & sound fatter. (& frankly, a lean sound was an Achilles heel for me). Subsequently I was duly warned NOT to generalize about bore size & to play & evaluate each individual instrument objectively according to its sound & feel. (Not
possible as nearly all the music stores around here have gone belly
up.)
Again, some users warned me that a.460 bore can contribute to a trombone-like sound. . Opinions here diverge as much as bore options, so I am no more the wiser
Furthermore I owned a silver Getzen 4 valve (like Doc Severinson's) & to this day have no idea if it's .420 or .460. It wasn't spectacular, but I had no idea the importance of the mouthpiece. (It was stock, maybe a 3C average depth!
The assumption about Hubbard's flugelhorn is rooted in reading he used a Cuesnon with the included stock mouthpiece, & he used a student model Bach Mercedes with a 7C mouthpiecrt at the time of 'Maiden Voyage'
Last edited by bassguy on Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:50 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: | | Furthermore I owned a silver Getzen 4 valve (like Doc Severinson's) & to this day have no Dan idea if it's .420 or .460. It wasn't spectacular, but I had no idea the importance of the mouthpiece. (It was stock, maybe a 3C average depth. |
This one?
http://www.getzen.com/flugel/eterna/896.shtml
.460 bore. It's been around for decades.
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