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Trumpetingbynurture
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 Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 11:45 pm Post subject: MF Mouthpieces |
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While I've never tried any MF style mouthpiece, I occasionally run across sporadic info about them. A lot of the time, I see people say things like "They work well for a certain type of player", but no one ever seems to really go into detail about what that type of player is.
The only people I can think of who have used or do use MF style pieces are MF himself, Dan Macmillion and Lynn Nicholson. I'm sure there are plenty of others out there though.
What I want to know, however, is what is it that makes someone the certain kind of player that those mouthpieces work for? I know a lot of them have open throats, so that means a more air-based approach, but what about the actual embouchure and mouthpiece rim/cup relationship?
Is it only a specific embouchure formation that is able to play these? If so, which? Is it that it works for Maggio-type Embouchures?
Just one of those things that I've always wondered at and never seen really explained. Can anyone enlighten me somewhat as to what makes those concave V mouthpieces played/not playable by some people?
Thanks! |
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Pete
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 8:18 am Post subject: |
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The MF style mouthpiece is just a term thrown around. Maynard used a mouthpiece for sometime that had no bite on the rim and was a V shaped cup. The Jet Tone version is the one most are familiar with. The original Monette version was basically that same mouthpiece shape. The last MF Monette version was close to a Marcinkiewicz Shew 1. And talking to guys in Maynard's band over the years the consensus was that he could play on just about any mouthpiece someone would hand him. So don't get too wrapped up in the mythical stories about the mouthpiece.
Pete |
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zackh411
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Joined: 17 May 2011
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Location: Saint Louis MO
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | The MF style mouthpiece is just a term thrown around. Maynard used a mouthpiece for sometime that had no bite on the rim and was a V shaped cup. The Jet Tone version is the one most are familiar with. The original Monette version was basically that same mouthpiece shape. The last MF Monette version was close to a Marcinkiewicz Shew 1. And talking to guys in Maynard's band over the years the consensus was that he could play on just about any mouthpiece someone would hand him. So don't get too wrapped up in the mythical stories about the mouthpiece.
Pete |
+1
| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | While I've never tried any MF style mouthpiece, I occasionally run across sporadic info about them. A lot of the time, I see people say things like "They work well for a certain type of player", but no one ever seems to really go into detail about what that type of player is.
The only people I can think of who have used or do use MF style pieces are MF himself, Dan Macmillion and Lynn Nicholson. I'm sure there are plenty of others out there though.
What I want to know, however, is what is it that makes someone the certain kind of player that those mouthpieces work for? I know a lot of them have open throats, so that means a more air-based approach, but what about the actual embouchure and mouthpiece rim/cup relationship?
Is it only a specific embouchure formation that is able to play these? If so, which? Is it that it works for Maggio-type Embouchures?
Just one of those things that I've always wondered at and never seen really explained. Can anyone enlighten me somewhat as to what makes those concave V mouthpieces played/not playable by some people?
Thanks! |
Assuming you are referring to the V shaped mouthpieces with no bite on the rim. In my experience, they work best for players who are playing efficiently and NOT using a lot of air and pressure, and for players where the piece itself is a good fit for their anatomy. No bite on the rim makes it easy for your chops to sort of "slip in" on you. Finding an embouchure setup that will "stay set" on the rim without work is difficult. The main consequence there is endurance. It's easy to tire one's self out quickly on such a piece.
I've been playing on one for a few weeks (and have before), and I'm noticing that my endurance is improving on it as I learn to relax on it. I played a gig on it last weekend and switched to my old piece after about ~30 minutes into each set. I played a gig on it yesterday and did practically the whole gig on it. I'm also one of those players that can make anything work (with varying degrees of endurance), but I prefer to play smaller pieces.
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MF Fan
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:22 am Post subject: |
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I’ve played on a Steve Patrick MF1 for about a year now and really like it. It’s based on the Calicciho MF played on in the 50’s, which was also the basis of the Groovin’ Higher and the pieces Roger Ingram is selling. I think most people struggle with the shallow and narrow aspect of it. According to Roger, MF referred to the design as being "tight." I played on a Jettone 2B for years, which is roughly equivalent to a Bach 10 ½ D, and transitioning to the MF v-cup took some time. If you're playing a Bach 1½ C you're likely going to find the shallow V-cup a challenge at first. I believe the backbore is a 23 on the Patrick version, which creates a bit more resistance than I was used to as well. Given it’s a no-bite rim that tapers into a shallow v-cup, it’s easy to get too much lip intrusion at first. Lynn Nicholson teaches that by learning to play this style mouthpiece you’re learning to be much more efficient, which can be transferred to any other mouthpiece if a shallow V-cup doesn’t fit the requirements of your gig.
Does it make upper register playing easier? For me it did. I think the cup shape purses your chops creating a more focused aperture. It’s not an overnight change however. I suspect most people give up because they don’t have the time or patience to work with it. As a comeback player without regular playing obligations I have the luxury of experimenting and slowly developing. It has made playing a lot of fun.
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shakuhachi
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:29 am Post subject: |
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MF Fan wrote
| Quote: | | Does it make upper register playing easier? For me it did. I think the cup shape purses your chops creating a more focused aperture. It’s not an overnight change however. I suspect most people give up because they don’t have the time or patience to work with it. As a comeback player without regular playing obligations I have the luxury of experimenting and slowly developing. It has made playing a lot of fun.
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1++
…exactly same with me…
the OP spoke about concave MF v-cup. I think concave is not a big problem as the convex v-cup like MF Jet-Tone. Take a narrow lead piece with very high alpha angle and no grip at all: it should function like MF pieces.
..but patience is an indispensable prerequisite in learning from MF pieces:
- you have no rim at all
- the cup is shallow, even more then most lead pieces because of a non dropped v-shape
To summarize in short:
- you need near 50/50 lip position vertically
- you should not roll in (too much tension) or roll out (too much lip protrusion/intrusion) your lips ,
- relaxed M setup but firm corners
- attention to a sufficient enough seal between lips and mouthpiece (more than other pieces with pronounced inner rim contour)
- staying relaxed in the area of arperture quite opposite to conscious lip to lip compression, instead compression from abdomen and only a bit seal attention (the rest is done by the piece itself!)
….
read the above one time, then forget it all, put a MF Piece - best a Lynn Nicholson XPiece - connected with a trumpet on your lips an play a nice tune in the mid-range without thinking but adjusting the sound only by your ears. Play softly and feel how the piece shapes your lips.
….real meditation!
If sound becomes worse put it down rest some minutes and try it again several minutes later.
If sound starts worse - trust the piece, relax mind and body and try again.
You will have a lean period of some weeks for sure. But if the system is well installed in your playing apparatus and well memorized it will reward you with easiness in playing, range and endurance even after long periods off the horn.
For me I found the convex shallow narrow MF v-Cups (Jet-Tone) most beneficial in that regard. I love my Nicholson XPiece, because it is a bit shallower and narrower then the MF Jet-Tone but has slightly a hint of an inner rim contour in comparison to Jet-Tone! Very well balanced with a #23 bore and a open short shank back bore machined by James R New.
For me any normal piece like dropped v-cup, c-cup, low alpha angle pieces sooner or later add too much tension in the aperture area needing some appropriate amount of maintenance time further on which otherwise could be spend for musical expression, fun and other things.
If you worry about dedicating full time in such a piece over a period of time because of your full performance schedule - then try the MHM of Lynn Nicholson: spend only few minutes a day with such a special piece along with your main pieces.
I wish best decisions and best progress.... |
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:46 am Post subject: |
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I played on MF style v cups for years. Different rims until I found something comfortable to me.
Shallow V cups gave added compression, that helped me over the years learn to play with resistance and use it at a tool. I learned to play with less pressure, more relaxed chop set up, and use WAY less air.
But the sound, and articulation....for me, that's the rub.
Straight V cups make the sound darker, almost tubby in the low and mid register. I mean that's why they are used on French horns, not trumpets. And for me and guys I here using them, articulations are chipped and missed much more frequently.
If you are using a V cup as a soloist, I can see some advantage. But take Maynard's sound, and think of it as a lead trumpeters sound in a big band section?? For me that sound is too dark and diffused ....and spread. No thank you. Not the sound I hear in my head.
I fought trying to get my sound brighter and tighter until I finally moved back to a shallow bowl cup. Interesting shallow pieces were more difficult for me to play years ago. I'd bottom out etc, but after using a v cup, I don't play as forceful, and I now have less chop intrusion
If I am a soloist in a MF tribute band I might use one for that sound, but otherwise, for the 99.999999% of trumpet playing that sound is just not apropos....for me at least. |
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Did shallow V cups make high notes easier for me??
No notes were added to my range. But the notes I had were easier to play. But my endurance was nowhere near as strong as less radical pieces. |
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MF Fan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:03 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if throat size plays a role in character of tone, e.g. dark vs. bright. I'm playing a Steve Patrick MF1, which has a 23 drill. Combined with my Benge 5x, I have a very bright tone, almost too much to blend in a section. All my playing is in amateur settings where playing in tune and in tempo are usually the primary concerns, so to hell with blending! I really like the combo. MF reportedly played on 14-19 drill, which I have to imagine contributed to his mellower sound.
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:29 am Post subject: |
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I play a Monette Prana Lynn Nicholson Model mouthpiece with a 22 drill as well as the Ingram (Pickett made) reproduction with a 24 drill (I think) and a Patrick MF 1 (his older version with a 25 throat) ... all three are fabulous mouthpieces. I play a Mt. Vernon Bach 10.5C mouthpiece as well.
These mouthpieces work very well for my anatomy. I would suggest getting one and trying it for a while. I have a very small mouth and thin lips ... so, what is small for most works just fine for me. We ARE ALL different.
By the way, Lynn Nicholson will soon be releasing his own mouthpiece made by Jim New. You might consider wathcing some of his videos and his explanations regarding these pieces.
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MJBTrumpet player
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Look at stuff on youtube from MF in the 1970's, No pressure LOL. |
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GordonH
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Main advantage of these mouthpieces (for me) is not the range, but ability to play for three hours and still feel OK. So in the days when I did that kind of playing it was worth the work to make the piece work.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:50 am Post subject: Re: MF Mouthpieces |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | | While I've never tried any MF style mouthpiece, I occasionally run across sporadic info about them. A lot of the time, I see people say things like "They work well for a certain type of player", but no one ever seems to really go into detail about what that type of player is. |
Maynard's embouchure was so unconventional anything he played on would be irrelevant to anyone else.
While most probably wouldn't mind having an at-will dub C like Maynard did, if you had the choice would you really want to sound like Maynard overall - including that weird, stuffy lower register he had? I wouldn't. I would want a student to be aware of Maynard but I wouldn't encourage them to emulate Maynard.
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MF Fan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:36 am Post subject: Re: MF Mouthpieces |
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| Robert P wrote: | | While most probably wouldn't mind having an at-will dub C like Maynard did, if you had the choice would you really want to sound like Maynard overall - including that weird, stuffy lower register he had? |
Hell yes 
I'm not sure what you mean by "stuffy low register." I personally think he sounded great in all registers. That said, his sound wasn't tailored to blend well in a section. He would have had to make different choices equipment-wise if he had to make a living playing in a section. Most of his section work from earlier in his career was on the right-side of the section, where it wasn't so noticeable.
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cheiden
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a huge fan of MF since the 70's. And back then I played a Holton MF ST-302 with a JetTone MF II mouthpiece. And I have a significant collection of Maynard recordings (on vinyl). All that said, I really don't aspire to sound like Maynard. Nobody is better than Maynard at what he did, but these days I aspire to play in a wide variety of genres. And my sound concept to do all that is very different.
Sure Maynard was amazing playing the Titan Symphony, but I think it's fairly safe to say his sound concept wouldn't have made him anybody's first choice as a principle in a symphony orchestra playing other works.
More to the point of the OP...I played a cupless MF JetTone in high school, long before I knew what I was doing (not that I know much more now). And though I played it for years I never really figured it out. It resulted in wicked amounts of arm pressure, obscene amounts of blowing force and all the attendant range and endurance problems. I would crush the mouthpiece against my lips which would close down the aperture and I spent all my time trying to pry my lips apart enough to produce a sound.
Now on a good day, I received a number of compliments on the tone I produced. It wasn't a typical sound but it had a quality that catches people's attention.
I've let a few other players my old setup and only a couple were able to produce a tone that had any resemblance to Maynards. And even they considered the piece to be utterly impractical. To be fair I'd expect the MF pieces with something of a cup would be more usable.
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GordonH
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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I started as a French horn player and my trumpet embouchure is still pretty similar. I think that's why I can cope with the MF style mouthpiece.
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cheiden
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| GordonH wrote: | | I started as a French horn player and my trumpet embouchure is still pretty similar. I think that's why I can cope with the MF style mouthpiece. |
I'm reasonably adept at French horn and that larger ID with a thin rim and deep cup has absolutely no relation to the MF mouthpiece. I'm curious why you feel that experience has helped you.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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GordonH
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:11 am Post subject: |
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I think it depends which type of French horn embouchure. My lip has always tended to be set into the cup a bit which means the inner part of my lip is slightly turned out the way. This seems to suit those shape of cups. I think Maynard used a set up something like that himself.
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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lynn9544
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:12 am Post subject: MF Mouthpieces |
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The latest run of the XPiece and Reversible Rim is now shipping. Thank you Jim New for your outstanding and fast work....  We have a couple extra from this run, and Jim has already started on the next run, if you're interested. Please contact me here....
lynn9544@gmail.com
Also, the Nicholson Personal is now finalized. The first run goes into production next week. Awesome piece!
Hope you are all well....
Peace
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