Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 468 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject:
For me it was a lack of coordination that caused a problem like this. I used to really arch the back of my tongue horribly (closed throat). I have been learning to correct this and my first attempts at the notes you described failed miserably. For me, the fix was making sure I was supporting the air a bit more and letting the front of my tongue arch more. I'm still working on this, but I am improving.
A combination of slurred arpeggios to establish the feel for these notes and then articulations on these notes are what is strengthening me. _________________ Bach 43
Marcinkiewicz CG Personal (22 throat)
Then play an ascending chromatic scale from second line G. Note where the bubbles get funky and play until they smooth out. Continue upward. _________________ Bill Bergren
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:26 am Post subject: Re: DEFG above and in staff thins out and can't last long.
KianThePlaya wrote:
Hey everyone. So I tried so many things like less top lip pressure, relaxing, and breathing but I need help now. Whenever I try to hold out a D E F or G (the ones on top of the staff and the G above the staff) it lastor 2 seconds very thin and eventually makes an unattractive noise and gives out. I feel like my tone on that has gotten thin when it used to be rich. Any help? If anyone needs an audio recording let me know.
Wishing you all the best with your obvious talent.....didn't we tell ya go see a trumpetteacher?.
Instead of waisting time wrestling your poor lips all by yourself.
Don't repeat the mistakes done by so many others including myself - that of stubbornly refusing help? I might be totally wrong - if so please accept my apologies - but you keep asking for advice on the forum and nothing seems to help. Obviously we all want to help you but probably a face to face session with a pro would do you far more good. If only one, maybe by skype.
Save money and go for it!!
Best wishes. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:34 am Post subject:
I've had times when everything around the top of the staff felt unreasonably difficult, with some of the same problems you describe. In my case, I recently discovered that I was rolling in and tightened my bottom lips so much that it could hardly vibrate. When I consciously rolled the lower lip out just a bit then those notes came out much more easily and with much better tone. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:05 am Post subject: Re: DEFG above and in staff thins out and can't last long.
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
KianThePlaya wrote:
Hey everyone. So I tried so many things like less top lip pressure, relaxing, and breathing but I need help now. Whenever I try to hold out a D E F or G (the ones on top of the staff and the G above the staff) it lastor 2 seconds very thin and eventually makes an unattractive noise and gives out. I feel like my tone on that has gotten thin when it used to be rich. Any help? If anyone needs an audio recording let me know.
Wishing you all the best with your obvious talent.....didn't we tell ya go see a trumpetteacher?.
Instead of waisting time wrestling your poor lips all by yourself.
Don't repeat the mistakes done by so many others including myself - that of stubbornly refuse help? I might be totally wrong - if so please accept my apologies - but you keep asking for advice on the forum and nothing seems to help. Obviously we all want to help you but probably a face to face session with a pro would do you far more good. If only one, maybe by skype.
Save money and go for it!!
Best wishes.
Assuming the above info is accurate: THIS.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:07 am Post subject: Re: DEFG above and in staff thins out and can't last long.
KianThePlaya wrote:
Hey everyone. So I tried so many things like less top lip pressure, relaxing, and breathing but I need help now. Whenever I try to hold out a D E F or G (the ones on top of the staff and the G above the staff) it lastor 2 seconds very thin and eventually makes an unattractive noise and gives out. I feel like my tone on that has gotten thin when it used to be rich. Any help? If anyone needs an audio recording let me know.
Your description is not clear. The G above the staff would be the G above the tuning note C (and that G is actually "on top of the staff"). No D, E or F lies "on top of the staff"). These notes are either in the staff or above the staff depending on which notes you are talking about.
So, are you referring to the D, E, F and G above tuning note (Middle) C, or the D, E, F and G above High C, well above the staff?
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Most players WASTE all of their strength long before they need to use it and so they get nowhere.
We shouldn't use facial muscles until we are well above High C.
IF you use the strength down low then what do you have left to use to go up?
Instead learn to anchor tongue. Anchor tonguing is the most efficient way to use tongue arch.
Lip curl and roll INDUCED by tongue arch (whistle) plays the first 2 octaves of the horn. There is almost no facial strength needed and if it is used here then it is wasted.
To assist range and rest the face some so it doesn't do ALL of the work; then you need to use the tongue in an arch and a hiss.
http://www.BbTrumpet.com/arch.html
And lastly make sure that you are NOT messing up the embouchure when you take a breath. Many people do.
http://www.BbTrumpet.com/breath.html _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons:www.BbTrumpet.com
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 517 Location: Liverpool, UK
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:33 am Post subject:
Pops wrote:
Most players WASTE all of their strength long before they need to use it and so they get nowhere.
We shouldn't use facial muscles until we are well above High C.
IF you use the strength down low then what do you have left to use to go up?
Instead learn to anchor tongue.
I totally agree with this and have put this kind of thinking into action over time with great results!
As for lip curl, not sure I've understood this correctly. I found that my bottom lip was curling into the mouthpiece as I went higher. When I stopped doing this and kept bottom lip as static as possible, I have more success and free blowing experience when going up the register. As when you curl the bottom lip in you can develop an air pocket beneath it, which is counterproductive. _________________ https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 517 Location: Liverpool, UK
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:39 am Post subject:
I've said it before on this forum- now the first thing I do when I take instrument out of the case is slur a 2-octave C major scale up and down, nice and easy, starting with a breath attack or a 'hah'.
I never was able to do this in the past straight out of the box. I could play it up to the G then after more 'warm up' could get it to Bb then the C. So I used to think I need to be warmed up to play above G. Why? I think as I was using too much facial muscles to get above the G, which needed warming up. In time, this thinking can get destructive as you then consider Bb or high C to be really high notes. They're not. Then you start missing them out in band rehearsals or play lower trumpet/cornet part and you then never practice them, which means you get even less confident on them as you never play them, which goes back to what Pops was saying about needing to practice up there.
No warm up is needed for a 2-octave C scale straight from the box.
You can still get by and play nice music with not the best technique. However, it's much more fun, just like with playing golf or anything else, to get same result for less hard work and stress, which comes with better technique. _________________ https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong
No warm up is needed for a 2-octave C scale straight from the box.
I disagree. You can't make assertions based on your personal experiences, and expect that they work for everyone, because they don't. I'm glad it works for you.
A 2 octave C scale with no warm up could easily lead to a player using far too much force or manipulations to make the scale happen, especially if this is a range challenge to begin with, and being able to complete this scale IMO does not relate to a correct playing mechanism.
If you are talking professional player level - sure, probably most if not all pro players could play a 2 octave C scale cold, but I doubt most of them would prefer to, or do so routinely at the start of every session. I'm pretty sure I could play a 3 octave C scale from cold, but it doesn't prove anything or help anything, and if anything it could result in over-blowing or excessive pressure. Those who can't, but are capable of this C-C after a warm up aren't lesser players - there's reasons why warm ups are good, and why after a warm up you may be capable of playing better or more efficiently than before.
Here's some of my thoughts.
The mental aspect. Getting into a good head space: this is a place where you visualise your goals and expectations of the session, you try to let the dust of every day life disappear and the focus on music comes to the forefront. I think a lot of people forget this.
The physical aspect.
- Shifting lactic acid in the muscles by fluttering, gentle facial massaging if necessary; stimulating blood flow to the area where you will be focusing your efforts. Like you would do in sports.
- Gaining control over a soft tone via breath attacks; starting the day from a point of control, and focus.
- Asserting a soft dynamic level and control of pitch at this level.
- Flexibility at low dynamics and low stress.
- Finding areas of your register where response is not even, and working on making it so.
Essentially all of the above is dialling in the aperture, gaining response at soft volumes, and preparing the muscles required for performance in a way that won't be damaging; by starting soft, and at first in the middle register.
I've had days after a heavy work load the day before, that it has taken me a while to get back to "normal" but one of the most important things I ever learned was to be patient, play soft, and NEVER to force response.
Malcolm McNab talks about this with Arturo & Wayne, where he called Jimmy Stamp with unresponsive lips and Stamp detailed a way to dial his chops back in - by soft air attacks.
As usual - this is all about finding what works for you, and if this does work for you - good! But not for me. I don't spend long warming up either: 5-10 mins tops, but I do have a routine which I stick to.
Respectfully,
Mike _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:36 am Post subject:
+1. Great post Mike.
While I think that playing or trying to play a 2 octave scale cold may have some educational value, I certainly don't think it would be advantageous for most developing players to make a habit of starting their day that way. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 195 Location: MID-ATLANTIC STATES
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:31 am Post subject:
To members who are having playing problems in general and are being self taught ...... and the OP. Offered in friendship
It is my opinion that anybody who has been playing a more than 6 months or so should not be having problems with the notes you describe on the staff. And, most of those that do, are being self-taught, and suffering from mistakes that are only going to get worse until they get a TEACHER to HELP them.
I sometimes get disturbed by some people who think that they have the ability to teach themselves how to play the trumpet and learn music at the same time. It's hard enough to "come back" by your self, let alone do it without any previous playing experience.
In either case, Playing trumpet is not something you can just read some information, ask some questions about, and do. Not only the trumpet, but any musical instrument for that matter. They each have their own little things of their own that must be done to play them correctly.
Would you think you could be able to perform minor surgery by purchasing some instruments, reading some information, and doing it?
I know that's a strong comparison but you get my idea.
Please get a teacher to help you before you develop more problems, become more discouraged and stop playing.
Joined: 19 Jul 2016 Posts: 113 Location: Australia
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:25 pm Post subject:
Well said all the responders!
A good teacher is invaluable! However, finding a good teacher is not always easy. And maybe you find a brilliant teacher, but his/her technique/tone doesn't appeal to you.
(I also find, as a musician, who before picking up an instrument, reads as much pedagogy as I can, in order to prepare myself... it is very hard to find a teacher who doesn't treat you like a professional. I recall numerous lessons where a teacher has highlighted all the bits I need to practise slowly numerous times.. and given me long lectures on the benefits of slow or section practise.. as if I didn't already know that.. i want a teacher to address historical performance practise and technique and leave all the general musician stuff... grrr)
But thank you all the responders. I have been lurking on this forum for years, on non-trumpet threads learning new approaches to things. Now that I've picked up a trumpet, I love learning all different approaches to give me ideas how to attempt to address my own challenges.
But this thread also has served to remind me that I think as I am slowly increasing my range.. it is probably time for me to ring my friend to ask for my second lesson!
So... when having lessons.. does a 'classical' trumpeter have a different teaching skill set to a brass band trumpeter? (My friend performs in a brass band)
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 517 Location: Liverpool, UK
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:23 pm Post subject:
bach_again wrote:
A 2 octave C scale with no warm up could easily lead to a player using far too much force or manipulations to make the scale happen, especially if this is a range challenge to begin with,
I used to have that problem. I improved my technique and now it's not a problem. That's the point I'm making. _________________ https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 517 Location: Liverpool, UK
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:26 pm Post subject:
cheiden wrote:
+1. Great post Mike.
While I think that playing or trying to play a 2 octave scale cold may have some educational value, I certainly don't think it would be advantageous for most developing players to make a habit of starting their day that way.
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:49 am Post subject:
I am not a professional, just a comeback player but here is my advise. Based on your previous posts you do not take lessons. Like others have mentioned, if you really want to improve, find a good teacher and take some lessons. That will be the quickest and most reliable path. Nobody can diagnose a serious embouchure issue over the internet.
If you are like most high school trumpet players (we were all there), your practice is probably all over the board. Getting better on the instrument comes down to what and how you practice. Most of your problems will likely be solved by having a daily routine that hits all of the basic fundamentals. I think most will agree that it should include some breathing exercises, a short warm-up of some sort, flexibility studies, articulation studies, technical studies and a range study. How much time you spend on each area will be based on the practice time you have available. After completing your routine you can work on whatever music you need to get ready for band practice. The routine should be done every day, resting for as long after each exercise is it took to play. Playing in this manner will keep your chops relatively fresh. If your chops get tired stop and take a break for a few minutes. It will take time and you will have to be patient but you will see improvement.
Here are some links to information that explain what and how you should be practicing:
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: DEFG above and in staff thins out and can't last long.
KianThePlaya wrote:
Hey everyone. So I tried so many things like less top lip pressure, relaxing, and breathing but I need help now. Whenever I try to hold out a D E F or G (the ones on top of the staff and the G above the staff) it lastor 2 seconds very thin and eventually makes an unattractive noise and gives out. I feel like my tone on that has gotten thin when it used to be rich. Any help? If anyone needs an audio recording let me know.
Something has happened in your playing approach that is causing this issue. Without going into speculation about what it might be, I would suggest that you first do the Caruso six notes every day for at least two weeks. Here is a link (below). Give this a try as part of your daily routine and see if this exercise doesn't help sort out your issue. It may take 3 or 4 weeks, but this should help you considerably.
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