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Sterling silver bell flugelhorn?


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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:01 pm    Post subject: Sterling silver bell flugelhorn? Reply with quote

Hello,

I'm planing on upgrading my Yamaha 635ST and I already have a good idea of what I want.

While I was doing my research about Adams, I found out that they do offer a custom sterling silver bell as an option.

I have never seen a sterling silver bell on a flugelhorn. I love the sound of King sterling silver bell cornets every time I hear someone playing them.

Just curious... Is there any other brand that offers or used to offer a sterling silver bell on a flugelhorn?

If any of you guys play this model, why did you choose it over all other options? What's the bell gauge?

Thank you.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO upgrading from a 635T will not be easy.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One could have a Sterling Silver bell made special order for a Kanstul flugelhorn, but what would be the reason? What sound concept would that fit? Not critical, just asking.
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
IMO upgrading from a 635T will not be easy.



I know, but age comes to us all... and to our horns.
If you could share your opinion (given that I mentioned Adams and that you live in The Netherlands), I'd be happy if you PM me about this subject.
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine that a sterling silver bell on a flugel would be 1) heavy, 2) fragile (silver is considerably softer than brass), and 3) very very expensive. Flugel bells are larger than trumpet bells!

Given the above 3 considerations, I think it's little wonder you really don't see sterling bells on flugels, but if the above 3 factors don't deter you, maybe it's worth a shot.

Update: I just checked Trent Austin's inventory of Adams flugels at http://tinyurl.com/currentadams and apparently he has an F1 in stock with a sterling silver bell! It is priced over $1000 more than the comparable F1 flugels.
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can tell you from playing my uncle's King Silvertone cornet that the sterling bell, compared to a conventional brass bell on the standard Master Model, has more core and a "bigger" tone. The metal is a little thicker, so the horn is a tad heavier, not "fragile" in the slightest.

I would imagine that the same would hold true for a flugelhorn. That said, with a flugel already tonally what it is, I'm not sure that there would be appreciable tonal advantage gained with a sterling bell, and it would add some significant weight to the horn. But, hey, it may be worth a shot, albeit an expensive shot at that!
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TrentAustin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI the weight of the horns with the Adams Sterling bell isn't much different...

a .45 gold brass f1 weighs in around 988 grams at our shop.

the .50 Sterling bell f1 weighs in at 1058 grams. Mind you the .50 gauge is thicker and thus adds a bit more mass overall.

Hope this info helps. Feel free to email the shop to talk specifics anytime (we are so busy these days monitoring the forums is a bit more challenging).


Best,
T
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TH Friends,

I played an Adam's Flugelhorn with a Sterling Silver bell at this year's ITG Convention.

It played and sounded so well that I am 100% confident if I didn't already have a Flugelhorn (Kanstul 925 w/ Copper Bell) I would have immediately bought it!

The intonation, tone quality and playability (quick response, etc.) was amazing.

If fit MY sound concept of a Flugelhorn which is to this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9zQzAAWgd4

Not as bright (focused high overtones) as a Trumpet yet not as dark (focused lower overtones) as a Trombone.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to fragility, if it is made from sterling (92.5% silver, 7.5% copper) and workhardened by forging or spinning, it is not likely to be any more fragile than a comparable copper or brass bell.
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
As to fragility, if it is made from sterling (92.5% silver, 7.5% copper) and workhardened by forging or spinning, it is not likely to be any more fragile than a comparable copper or brass bell.


Thank you for the info. I was always under the impression that silver was softer than brass, and thus more prone to crushing damage, but it appears I was mistaken! Always happy to have the record corrected.

I guess I always assumed that silver was heavier because those King Silvertone instruments are noticeably heavier than the brass counterparts, but it appears that was more of a design choice than a structural necessity.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sterling silver and flugelhorn. I could be wrong, but that seems a bit 'oil and water' to me.
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkle wrote:
royjohn wrote:
As to fragility, if it is made from sterling (92.5% silver, 7.5% copper) and workhardened by forging or spinning, it is not likely to be any more fragile than a comparable copper or brass bell.


Thank you for the info. I was always under the impression that silver was softer than brass, and thus more prone to crushing damage, but it appears I was mistaken! Always happy to have the record corrected.

I guess I always assumed that silver was heavier because those King Silvertone instruments are noticeably heavier than the brass counterparts, but it appears that was more of a design choice than a structural necessity.


Turkle, I've had several (5 or 6?) sterling-silver belled horns (both trumpet and cornet) and I would have thought the same as you. After hearing Trent weigh in (what a pun!!)... Well, live and learn.
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan O'Donnell wrote:
TH Friends,

I played an Adam's Flugelhorn with a Sterling Silver bell at this year's ITG Convention.

It played and sounded so well that I am 100% confident if I didn't already have a Flugelhorn (Kanstul 925 w/ Copper Bell) I would have immediately bought it!

The intonation, tone quality and playability (quick response, etc.) was amazing.

If fit MY sound concept of a Flugelhorn which is to this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9zQzAAWgd4

Not as bright (focused high overtones) as a Trumpet yet not as dark (focused lower overtones) as a Trombone.


I once tried the "famous" F1 with a red brass bell + nickel silver flare and I did like it. But I'd really like to try the yellow brass bell and the sterling silver versions and feel how they sound.

Here's a couple of videos of a Brazilian trumpet player playing the sterling silver bell F1.


Link



Link


As far as I can tell, I like the way I can hear some precision and he still sounds pretty sweet. That's important, because I don't use my flugelhorn just for ballads and I do play the flugelhorn a lot more than I play the trumpet.

My sound concept: a flugel that's sweet, responsive, precise and maybe a few steps darker than a BBB cornet. For comparison's sake, I used to play a copper bell Kanstul 1525 and I did not like how I sounded. I sold it in about 6 months. I'm much happier with the tone I get my Yamaha 635ST. But, as I said before, this is an old horn.
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disclaimer: I used to work at ACB and don't play a ton of flugelhorn

I did get a chance to play them back and forth between a yellow brass (and gold and red) and a Sterling Silver F1.

There is a strong difference between brass and Sterling Silver. I'd say that sterling silver is about equally bright as yellow or gold brass but there's a lot of extra overtones that can make it sound a bit more "present."

If you want a horn that sounds so dark that a black hole seems bright in comparison, the sterling silver is not for you. If you want a flugelhorn that is super responsive and flexible in sound concept, sterling silver is worth looking into.
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KingSilverSonic
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkle wrote:
royjohn wrote:
As to fragility, if it is made from sterling (92.5% silver, 7.5% copper) and workhardened by forging or spinning, it is not likely to be any more fragile than a comparable copper or brass bell.


Thank you for the info. I was always under the impression that silver was softer than brass, and thus more prone to crushing damage, but it appears I was mistaken! Always happy to have the record corrected.

I guess I always assumed that silver was heavier because those King Silvertone instruments are noticeably heavier than the brass counterparts, but it appears that was more of a design choice than a structural necessity.

I have a King sterling silver bell cornet made in ~ 1960. I purchased a new ProTec cornet case and after using the case for about a month i noticed that the bell was deformed. I absolutely could not figure out how this happened until I noticed that the fit of the horn into the case was pretty tight. I later had the horn completely overhauled by Dr. Valve and he reshaped the bell. But, my experience is that the silver is soft relative to brass.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrentAustin wrote:


a .45 gold brass f1 weighs in around 988 grams at our shop.

the .50 Sterling bell f1 weighs in at 1058 grams. Mind you the .50 gauge is thicker and thus adds a bit more mass overall.


A difference of 2.5 ounces. Not really noticeable.
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I notice a clarity of tone in the videos that would help the flugel blend in section.
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cyber_shake
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love the F1! Played all the flugels I could demo at 2015 ITG. Kept coming back to the F1, and specifically one with a red brass bell and silver flair. Walked away from it 3 times ... then I could resist no longer! Sweet horn, indeed!
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well today I went to our Brazilian Adams dealer (very close to where I live) and I just tested my Yamaha 635ST against two F1 Adams flugelhorns:

- Laquered F1 with a 160mm red brass bell + nickel silver flare - .50 gauge
- Silver plated F1 with a 150mm brass bell - .45 gauge

Comparing just these Adams flugels, I liked the brass bell one. It's more suited to the way I like to play the flugel.

From behind the bell, it was pure pleasure. Compared to my old Yamaha, it was very precise. My Yamaha is fluffier, though.

The thing is I recorded my test with a Tascam digital audio recorder. And once I got home, I put my in-ear phones on and listened to the test carefully.

To my surprise, I preferred the way my Yamaha sounded compared to the other two Adams. The tone was still close to the brass bell Adams but fatter and sometimes even sweeter.

I would like to have both horns (Yamaha and Adams) but, for now, I still sound better on my Yamaha.


Last edited by abundrefo on Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

see post 2
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