Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:01 pm Post subject: Sterling silver bell flugelhorn?
Hello,
I'm planing on upgrading my Yamaha 635ST and I already have a good idea of what I want.
While I was doing my research about Adams, I found out that they do offer a custom sterling silver bell as an option.
I have never seen a sterling silver bell on a flugelhorn. I love the sound of King sterling silver bell cornets every time I hear someone playing them.
Just curious... Is there any other brand that offers or used to offer a sterling silver bell on a flugelhorn?
If any of you guys play this model, why did you choose it over all other options? What's the bell gauge?
One could have a Sterling Silver bell made special order for a Kanstul flugelhorn, but what would be the reason? What sound concept would that fit? Not critical, just asking. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
I know, but age comes to us all... and to our horns.
If you could share your opinion (given that I mentioned Adams and that you live in The Netherlands), I'd be happy if you PM me about this subject.
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:26 am Post subject:
I imagine that a sterling silver bell on a flugel would be 1) heavy, 2) fragile (silver is considerably softer than brass), and 3) very very expensive. Flugel bells are larger than trumpet bells!
Given the above 3 considerations, I think it's little wonder you really don't see sterling bells on flugels, but if the above 3 factors don't deter you, maybe it's worth a shot.
Update: I just checked Trent Austin's inventory of Adams flugels at http://tinyurl.com/currentadams and apparently he has an F1 in stock with a sterling silver bell! It is priced over $1000 more than the comparable F1 flugels. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
I can tell you from playing my uncle's King Silvertone cornet that the sterling bell, compared to a conventional brass bell on the standard Master Model, has more core and a "bigger" tone. The metal is a little thicker, so the horn is a tad heavier, not "fragile" in the slightest.
I would imagine that the same would hold true for a flugelhorn. That said, with a flugel already tonally what it is, I'm not sure that there would be appreciable tonal advantage gained with a sterling bell, and it would add some significant weight to the horn. But, hey, it may be worth a shot, albeit an expensive shot at that! _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet
FYI the weight of the horns with the Adams Sterling bell isn't much different...
a .45 gold brass f1 weighs in around 988 grams at our shop.
the .50 Sterling bell f1 weighs in at 1058 grams. Mind you the .50 gauge is thicker and thus adds a bit more mass overall.
Hope this info helps. Feel free to email the shop to talk specifics anytime (we are so busy these days monitoring the forums is a bit more challenging).
I played an Adam's Flugelhorn with a Sterling Silver bell at this year's ITG Convention.
It played and sounded so well that I am 100% confident if I didn't already have a Flugelhorn (Kanstul 925 w/ Copper Bell) I would have immediately bought it!
The intonation, tone quality and playability (quick response, etc.) was amazing.
If fit MY sound concept of a Flugelhorn which is to this...
Not as bright (focused high overtones) as a Trumpet yet not as dark (focused lower overtones) as a Trombone. _________________ God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell
"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:29 pm Post subject:
As to fragility, if it is made from sterling (92.5% silver, 7.5% copper) and workhardened by forging or spinning, it is not likely to be any more fragile than a comparable copper or brass bell. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:11 pm Post subject:
royjohn wrote:
As to fragility, if it is made from sterling (92.5% silver, 7.5% copper) and workhardened by forging or spinning, it is not likely to be any more fragile than a comparable copper or brass bell.
Thank you for the info. I was always under the impression that silver was softer than brass, and thus more prone to crushing damage, but it appears I was mistaken! Always happy to have the record corrected.
I guess I always assumed that silver was heavier because those King Silvertone instruments are noticeably heavier than the brass counterparts, but it appears that was more of a design choice than a structural necessity. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject:
Sterling silver and flugelhorn. I could be wrong, but that seems a bit 'oil and water' to me. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2013 Location: Charleston, SC
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:10 pm Post subject:
Turkle wrote:
royjohn wrote:
As to fragility, if it is made from sterling (92.5% silver, 7.5% copper) and workhardened by forging or spinning, it is not likely to be any more fragile than a comparable copper or brass bell.
Thank you for the info. I was always under the impression that silver was softer than brass, and thus more prone to crushing damage, but it appears I was mistaken! Always happy to have the record corrected.
I guess I always assumed that silver was heavier because those King Silvertone instruments are noticeably heavier than the brass counterparts, but it appears that was more of a design choice than a structural necessity.
Turkle, I've had several (5 or 6?) sterling-silver belled horns (both trumpet and cornet) and I would have thought the same as you. After hearing Trent weigh in (what a pun!!)... Well, live and learn. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18037 SterlingSilver+, 18043*, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super
I played an Adam's Flugelhorn with a Sterling Silver bell at this year's ITG Convention.
It played and sounded so well that I am 100% confident if I didn't already have a Flugelhorn (Kanstul 925 w/ Copper Bell) I would have immediately bought it!
The intonation, tone quality and playability (quick response, etc.) was amazing.
If fit MY sound concept of a Flugelhorn which is to this...
Not as bright (focused high overtones) as a Trumpet yet not as dark (focused lower overtones) as a Trombone.
I once tried the "famous" F1 with a red brass bell + nickel silver flare and I did like it. But I'd really like to try the yellow brass bell and the sterling silver versions and feel how they sound.
Here's a couple of videos of a Brazilian trumpet player playing the sterling silver bell F1.
As far as I can tell, I like the way I can hear some precision and he still sounds pretty sweet. That's important, because I don't use my flugelhorn just for ballads and I do play the flugelhorn a lot more than I play the trumpet.
My sound concept: a flugel that's sweet, responsive, precise and maybe a few steps darker than a BBB cornet. For comparison's sake, I used to play a copper bell Kanstul 1525 and I did not like how I sounded. I sold it in about 6 months. I'm much happier with the tone I get my Yamaha 635ST. But, as I said before, this is an old horn.
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 Posts: 1351 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:17 am Post subject:
Disclaimer: I used to work at ACB and don't play a ton of flugelhorn
I did get a chance to play them back and forth between a yellow brass (and gold and red) and a Sterling Silver F1.
There is a strong difference between brass and Sterling Silver. I'd say that sterling silver is about equally bright as yellow or gold brass but there's a lot of extra overtones that can make it sound a bit more "present."
If you want a horn that sounds so dark that a black hole seems bright in comparison, the sterling silver is not for you. If you want a flugelhorn that is super responsive and flexible in sound concept, sterling silver is worth looking into. _________________ More than one trumpet
A "few" mouthpieces
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 1542 Location: Dubuque, Iowa
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:48 pm Post subject:
Turkle wrote:
royjohn wrote:
As to fragility, if it is made from sterling (92.5% silver, 7.5% copper) and workhardened by forging or spinning, it is not likely to be any more fragile than a comparable copper or brass bell.
Thank you for the info. I was always under the impression that silver was softer than brass, and thus more prone to crushing damage, but it appears I was mistaken! Always happy to have the record corrected.
I guess I always assumed that silver was heavier because those King Silvertone instruments are noticeably heavier than the brass counterparts, but it appears that was more of a design choice than a structural necessity.
I have a King sterling silver bell cornet made in ~ 1960. I purchased a new ProTec cornet case and after using the case for about a month i noticed that the bell was deformed. I absolutely could not figure out how this happened until I noticed that the fit of the horn into the case was pretty tight. I later had the horn completely overhauled by Dr. Valve and he reshaped the bell. But, my experience is that the silver is soft relative to brass. _________________ Richard
Lawler C7
Burbank Benge C
Calicchio 1s/2
King Symphony 20 DB and Silver Sonic Cornet
Lawler flugelhorn
Member: Bugles Across America
I notice a clarity of tone in the videos that would help the flugel blend in section. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet
Love the F1! Played all the flugels I could demo at 2015 ITG. Kept coming back to the F1, and specifically one with a red brass bell and silver flair. Walked away from it 3 times ... then I could resist no longer! Sweet horn, indeed! _________________ Blaine
brasshurricane@gmail.com
Well today I went to our Brazilian Adams dealer (very close to where I live) and I just tested my Yamaha 635ST against two F1 Adams flugelhorns:
- Laquered F1 with a 160mm red brass bell + nickel silver flare - .50 gauge
- Silver plated F1 with a 150mm brass bell - .45 gauge
Comparing just these Adams flugels, I liked the brass bell one. It's more suited to the way I like to play the flugel.
From behind the bell, it was pure pleasure. Compared to my old Yamaha, it was very precise. My Yamaha is fluffier, though.
The thing is I recorded my test with a Tascam digital audio recorder. And once I got home, I put my in-ear phones on and listened to the test carefully.
To my surprise, I preferred the way my Yamaha sounded compared to the other two Adams. The tone was still close to the brass bell Adams but fatter and sometimes even sweeter.
I would like to have both horns (Yamaha and Adams) but, for now, I still sound better on my Yamaha.
Last edited by abundrefo on Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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