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mm55
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 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | Some day I want to do an organized study and measure various players' air power levels (how much thoracic air pressure they can generate) |
Thoracic air pressure is not power. It's pressure. If you're going to actually measure something, the difference between measuring pressure and measuring pressure is important. Pressure is probably easier to measure, but a pressure measurement is not sufficient to calculate power.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: | | Some day I want to do an organized study and measure various players' air power levels (how much thoracic air pressure they can generate) |
Thoracic air pressure is not power. It's pressure. |
I know that. I was using laymen's terms. I think that's okay, given this is an internet forum for trumpet players, not physicists. If you want to mince words, given the fact that the definition of power is the ability to do something or act in a certain way, and the fact that when a player generates air pressure that pressure is used to do something (help make sound on our trumpets), I think it's reasonable to conclude that generated air pressure provides power to do the work of playing a trumpet.
You might want to correct your post, as it's currently showing NYC-player as having said what I said (that you were quoting).
Cheers,
John
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danny45635
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | danny45635 wrote: | | I've been doing some Caruso which has seemed to help. I also do a Jon Fadis range excercise that Sean Jones showed me (I know it's an excercise and not a study). |
Is the Faddis exercise the one with triads followed by a soft low G? |
The one I was shown didn't end on a soft low G. Maybe there's more than one exercise. The one I was shown went like this: Start in the middle register, lets say a 3rd space C. Then you will play 5 notes up and back down and do the arpeggio. Then, continue chromatically even if the notes won't come out (and there is just air). The idea is that you will edventually gain the muscle memory and the notes will gradually become more than air. Obviously, stop when you've had enough. I guess you could add a soft low G at the end. That's what was taught to me and I described it as best as I could.
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timothyquinlan
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McVouty
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | McVouty wrote: | Lesson 1 Claude Gordon's systematic approach.
Chromatic long tones from Pedal C to Double C.  |
Actually, Claude just wrote the Lesson One to help students get the feel of playing the Pedals. When he had a new student, he would make sure the student knew how to properly play pedal notes, then he'd start the Student out on Lesson Two (Parts One and Two) in the book, plus the rest of a well-rounded routine (flexibility studies, technical studies, etc.).
From the thing that you wrote, I'm thinking maybe you missed the part in the instructions where Claude wrote that the Part One (pedal) studies should be taken as low as the particular student can go, and the Part Two (upper range) exercise are to be played up as high as the particular student can go.
These type of exercises are how most of the great high note players developed their range, players including Jon Faddis, Arturo Sandoval, Rashawn Ross and Adam Rapa among others. Personally, I built a practice register from Triple Pedal C to the G above Double High C (with a performance register to a solid Double High C) by using these exercises daily.
Cheers,
John Mohan
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You got me John - when I posted my tongue was firmly in my cheek. I had recently picked up a copy of SA and that was my first reaction when I opened lesson 1 without reading the text.
Its a bit regimented for my liking - as I like to dine on a healthy but varied diet from day to day, but interesting concepts and approach which I have started to incorporate into my practice. I think there is a lot to the smooth transitioning from pedal to the other registers - especially from breath support and forward lip position.
I already do a lot from Clarke and Collins so was interested to see how Gordon used them in conjunction with the pedals etc.
Cheers
Carl |
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rebus9
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC-player wrote: | Sure, I was playing on a rim with almost no bite, so my chops were very free to move about. My bottom slipped up over my top teeth, my corners went from a smile to a frown and my chin kinda bunches up now.
I now play with my bottom lip almost always over top teeth except in the very low register. This creates an obstruction for the air to leave my mouth, and for whatever reason, gave me a third immediately....and more later. |
By "over" the top teeth, are you talking about just covering the lower edge of the top teeth, or are you bringing the bottom lip all the way up to fully cover them?
I'm now having brief moments of "higher than normal" range, and I'm struggling to isolate what's making it happen, because it's so brief and transient. It "feels" like it has something to do with the lower lip, just inside the corners. But it happens too fast to get a handle on WHAT is "different" from my normal setup. Until I can sort it out, I won't be able to repeat it on-demand.
I've tried the "frown" many times and am not inclined to believe it works for my particular chops. I think Louis Dowdeswell also uses some variant of a relaxed frown.
Are you an upstream/bottom-lip-primary, or downstream/top-lip-primary kind of player?
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tptguy
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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There are only 3 types of embouchures. Here is a picture of all three, a pic that I found invaluable in finally figuring it out. NYC-player is talking about the bottom one (C). And though I spent years (with big name chop docs) trying to make the other two work, C is the only the one I now use. It makes trumpet easy and that's fun!
http://www.callettrumpets.com/web_pics.htm |
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rebus9
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| tptguy wrote: | There are only 3 types of embouchures. Here is a picture of all three, a pic that I found invaluable in finally figuring it out. NYC-player is talking about the bottom one (C). And though I spent years (with big name chop docs) trying to make the other two work, C is the only the one I now use. It makes trumpet easy and that's fun!
http://www.callettrumpets.com/web_pics.htm |
Figures. I got Jerome's "Superchops" book and video years ago and have really struggled to make it work. End result is I've pretty much abandoned it as "not going to work for my chops". Could be I'm not built for it, or maybe I'm just implementing it wrong.
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| rebus9 wrote: | | NYC-player wrote: | Sure, I was playing on a rim with almost no bite, so my chops were very free to move about. My bottom slipped up over my top teeth, my corners went from a smile to a frown and my chin kinda bunches up now.
I now play with my bottom lip almost always over top teeth except in the very low register. This creates an obstruction for the air to leave my mouth, and for whatever reason, gave me a third immediately....and more later. |
By "over" the top teeth, are you talking about just covering the lower edge of the top teeth, or are you bringing the bottom lip all the way up to fully cover them?
I'm now having brief moments of "higher than normal" range, and I'm struggling to isolate what's making it happen, because it's so brief and transient. It "feels" like it has something to do with the lower lip, just inside the corners. But it happens too fast to get a handle on WHAT is "different" from my normal setup. Until I can sort it out, I won't be able to repeat it on-demand.
I've tried the "frown" many times and am not inclined to believe it works for my particular chops. I think Louis Dowdeswell also uses some variant of a relaxed frown.
Are you an upstream/bottom-lip-primary, or downstream/top-lip-primary kind of player?
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Depends on the register. The high I go, the more bottom lip covers more of my top teeth.
It's a combination of my chin bunching, and pushing up coupled with my jaw opening more as I ascend. My corners are completely relaxed, in a frown shape.
Try setting you lips with a "M" word shape. Now just open your jaw with your lips still closed. Your corners have to drop in a frown shape naturally.
The Callet pic provided in this thread, type C is the way I play....I think
Since my bottom lip is not on top of my top lip, I think I am neigh an upstream or downstream. The air just goes straight out...I think.
If I'm doing everything correctly, I'd like to think my set up is similar to James Morrison's chops. |
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McVouty
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| tptguy wrote: | There are only 3 types of embouchures. Here is a picture of all three, a pic that I found invaluable in finally figuring it out. NYC-player is talking about the bottom one (C). And though I spent years (with big name chop docs) trying to make the other two work, C is the only the one I now use. It makes trumpet easy and that's fun!
http://www.callettrumpets.com/web_pics.htm |
Very interesting - thanks for positing - I hadn't seen this before. I'm definitely in the B camp - the shape of my lips and jaw mean that if I want to align top to bottom and allow air through I have to pucker. I have a large cupids bow and relatively small bottom lip which means that if I bring them together in a top to bottom motion to make the corners the lip tissue just closes off the vibrations completely in the centre, or the bottom lip collapses under the top lip. Gotta work with what you have. |
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tptguy
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like McV and I are quite similar. I also have decidedly receded lower jaw, cupids bow, and thin lower lip. Plus, I have large upper teeth and a crooked lateral incisor. So I've been thrown similar curveballs, possibly more. We surely aren't alone, but all these issues can be fixed.
Find someone that understands the face and can fix it - i.e. use it effectively/efficiently. Quickly discard anyone that instructs to blow harder, pivot, or arch the tongue. They live on the same dark side, LOL.
For truly passionate players there are other options - ones that fully work to make the trumpet easy, powerful, and fun (and intune!!). But you have to search them out.
Last edited by tptguy on Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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danny45635
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC-player wrote: | For me, upper register came like an awakening one day. I'd had a wall of a high F since high school. Then one day, I learned on accident after a mouthpiece switch about my bottom lip placement and gained a third that day.
I just have played 10,000 high As because I was afraid it would disappear.
Once I moved back to my old mouthpiece, the new notes were still there. And never left, and I've learned to have a playable C, C# and sometimes D. Which in reality, there is like no call for. But I have them.
Backing off less air, more control, and more musicality but the rest of my high chops. I approach high notes like I'm playing piccolo trumpet. Clean, reserved, articulated notes that I can make music with...not just sit on a note. The more reserved I am, the more I can do with those notes.
Huge breaths, maximum lung capacity, yoga breath, etc.....voodoo.
Once I had my "aha" moment, I never went back. Had nothing to do with strength, pedal tones, long tones, buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing, lead pipe buzzing, pencil tricks....just figured out what my chops were doing.
Smaller mouthpieces make ALL of this easier |
I just tried something similar with my bottom lip placement and the notes at the top of my range felt easier and more present. My G above high C came out really easily, and much fuller than how I usually play it, despite the fact I've been practicing all day. It oddly didn't feel very taxing to play. It's really amazing what a little experimenting can do.
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Swartz wrote: | | Back in the 1960s and early 70s, I was so stupid I didn't realize one needed special high register material. I just played most of the pep band stuff in HS up an octave, as well as about everything else I could |
Nah, that couldn't possibly work. It's a law of physics that when you transpose, the conditions conducive to high range development magically disappear. |
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| danny45635 wrote: | | NYC-player wrote: | For me, upper register came like an awakening one day. I'd had a wall of a high F since high school. Then one day, I learned on accident after a mouthpiece switch about my bottom lip placement and gained a third that day.
I just have played 10,000 high As because I was afraid it would disappear.
Once I moved back to my old mouthpiece, the new notes were still there. And never left, and I've learned to have a playable C, C# and sometimes D. Which in reality, there is like no call for. But I have them.
Backing off less air, more control, and more musicality but the rest of my high chops. I approach high notes like I'm playing piccolo trumpet. Clean, reserved, articulated notes that I can make music with...not just sit on a note. The more reserved I am, the more I can do with those notes.
Huge breaths, maximum lung capacity, yoga breath, etc.....voodoo.
Once I had my "aha" moment, I never went back. Had nothing to do with strength, pedal tones, long tones, buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing, lead pipe buzzing, pencil tricks....just figured out what my chops were doing.
Smaller mouthpieces make ALL of this easier |
I just tried something similar with my bottom lip placement and the notes at the top of my range felt easier and more present. My G above high C came out really easily, and much fuller than how I usually play it, despite the fact I've been practicing all day. It oddly didn't feel very taxing to play. It's really amazing what a little experimenting can do. |
That's awesome to hear. What might be interesting is to try and bring that set up into all of your playing in all your playing registers and try and connect everything.
For me really focusing on loose relaxed corners, so I fall into a frown shape really helped as well.
Good luck! |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| McVouty wrote: | Lesson 1 Claude Gordon's systematic approach.
Chromatic long tones from Pedal C to Double C. |
And this is a method of improvement HOW? you would probably improve more if you look at Pedal C to Triple C , 1 more octave hehe.
???? What a useless study IMO |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:38 am Post subject: |
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[quote="NYC-player"] | Thomas T wrote: | | NYC-player wrote: | | Then one day, I learned on accident after a mouthpiece switch about my bottom lip placement and gained a third that day. |
I now play with my bottom lip almost always over top teeth except in the very low register. This creates an obstruction for the air to leave my mouth, and for whatever reason, gave me a third immediately....and more later. |
That doesn't sound very transferrable to playing freely. Do you actually change emb. going from one range to another. I must say I cant imagine doing this standing ass showing in front of an audience. I have always tried to minimize changes to anything but air column, and have managed a very usable hi g when stars line up. I start to get weaker with my pitch holding after that and start sliding notes. When I try to do it with stronge air, it gets worse and starts sounding like the 60's screech trumpet sound. Not my idead of notes. I was hoping staying with the controlled blow would eventually build more. Most stuff I see doesn't spend more than 30 notes a night at anything near that range. Who do you guys play for that demand that kingd of regular range. In the 60's I saw a few Woody Herman and Kenton lead pieces that were written there, but were only called when Chase/Ferguson/Childers/or Ford were on hand. Tabakken (sp) wrote a lot and Frank Zappa were the worst, who else is writing for Maynard?
Rod |
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:51 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Rod Haney"] | NYC-player wrote: | | Thomas T wrote: | | NYC-player wrote: | | Then one day, I learned on accident after a mouthpiece switch about my bottom lip placement and gained a third that day. |
I now play with my bottom lip almost always over top teeth except in the very low register. This creates an obstruction for the air to leave my mouth, and for whatever reason, gave me a third immediately....and more later. |
That doesn't sound very transferrable to playing freely. Do you actually change emb. going from one range to another. I must say I cant imagine doing this standing ass showing in front of an audience. I have always tried to minimize changes to anything but air column, and have managed a very usable hi g when stars line up. I start to get weaker with my pitch holding after that and start sliding notes. When I try to do it with stronge air, it gets worse and starts sounding like the 60's screech trumpet sound. Not my idead of notes. I was hoping staying with the controlled blow would eventually build more. Most stuff I see doesn't spend more than 30 notes a night at anything near that range. Who do you guys play for that demand that kingd of regular range. In the 60's I saw a few Woody Herman and Kenton lead pieces that were written there, but were only called when Chase/Ferguson/Childers/or Ford were on hand. Tabakken (sp) wrote a lot and Frank Zappa were the worst, who else is writing for Maynard?
Rod |
Your post was a rambling word salad. However I have a few minutes, so I'll try and address some of your questions.
No, I don't change chop set up. My bottom lip is only not set over my top teeth around low C and below.
My chops really don't appear to move much at all when playing. No stretching, no weird pivots etc. My chin appears to bunch more as I ascend, corners always relaxed in a frown shape.
I NEVER overblow or think of "more air" for higher register.
I don't know what "screech trumpet sound" is....but I would avoid anything with that terminology to describe what comes out of my trumpet.
I want to play total trumpet. Whether lead, section, or whatever book I'm reading. I like a zillion trumpeters also want to create energy by being able to play in the upper register when needed.
30 notes a night? I never counted but I want to play ALL the notes.
Playing lead trumpet doesn't mean playing Maynard's book. But rather playing whatever is in front of me. A strong competent lead player should have a high A whenever he needs it, strong sense of time, pitch, style, articulation, consistency, and leadership. With that you can cover 99% of anything put in front of you.
The double C?? Icing on the cake. Not necessary, but can add excitement to the band, and make cats like yourself marvel. |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="NYC-player"][quote="Rod Haney"][quote="NYC-player"] | Thomas T wrote: | | NYC-player wrote: | | Then one day, I learned on accident after a mouthpiece switch about my bottom lip placement and gained a third that day. |
I now play with my bottom lip almost always over top teeth except in the very low register. This creates an obstruction for the air to leave my mouth, and for whatever reason, gave me a third immediately....and more later. |
Your post was a rambling word salad. However I have a few minutes, so I'll try and address some of your questions.
Sorry about the ramble and thank you for your response, I shall try to be more coherent in my response.
No, I don't change chop set up. My bottom lip is only not set over my top teeth around low C and below.
My chops really don't appear to move much at all when playing. No stretching, no weird pivots etc. My chin appears to bunch more as I ascend, corners always relaxed in a frown shape.
I just wondered how you did that with a piece that moved from low g to middle c quickly (or wherever the change occurred). Curiosity not skepticism. Sounds a bit like what Callet is now teaching and it hasn't worked for me but whatever gets you there is fine by me
I NEVER overblow or think of "more air" for higher register.
I don't know what "screech trumpet sound" is....but I would avoid anything with that terminology to describe what comes out of my trumpet.
Screech was (upon a time) when you blew as high and loud as you could for the last sustained notes of a fast song, a dated term.
30 notes a night? I never counted but I want to play ALL the notes.
Playing lead trumpet doesn't mean playing Maynard's book. But rather playing whatever is in front of me. A strong competent lead player should have a high A whenever he needs it, strong sense of time, pitch, style, articulation, consistency, and leadership. With that you can cover 99% of anything put in front of you.
The double C?? Icing on the cake. Not necessary, but can add excitement to the band, and make cats like yourself marvel.[/quote
I agree with all you have said, this forum does seem to be a bit obsessed with the dbl c tho. And for some gigs they are not just icing but where you lived. That's where the guys I mentioned lived and why they played lead for who they did. As far as making cats like me marvel I met them all and knew 2 fairly well, very few these days make my jaw drop. But then anything but a VERY well played note above dbl c sound like a pitch instead of what I call a note. I think what you said about being able to play what is put in front of you musically is what we all strive for, but we also need to be realistic as to what we get called to play. How many get called to play lead or hi trumpet on the really hi stuff? We all want to play it but really How much call is there for it? I was only pointing out that many spend a lot of trumpet currency on something that is secondary and not primary in being a great player. Didn't mean a thing about anything u said - ok?
Rod
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:58 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Rod Haney"][quote="NYC-player"][quote="Rod Haney"] | NYC-player wrote: | | Thomas T wrote: | | NYC-player wrote: | | Then one day, I learned on accident after a mouthpiece switch about my bottom lip placement and gained a third that day. |
I now play with my bottom lip almost always over top teeth except in the very low register. This creates an obstruction for the air to leave my mouth, and for whatever reason, gave me a third immediately....and more later. |
Your post was a rambling word salad. However I have a few minutes, so I'll try and address some of your questions.
Sorry about the ramble and thank you for your response, I shall try to be more coherent in my response.
No, I don't change chop set up. My bottom lip is only not set over my top teeth around low C and below.
My chops really don't appear to move much at all when playing. No stretching, no weird pivots etc. My chin appears to bunch more as I ascend, corners always relaxed in a frown shape.
I just wondered how you did that with a piece that moved from low g to middle c quickly (or wherever the change occurred). Curiosity not skepticism. Sounds a bit like what Callet is now teaching and it hasn't worked for me but whatever gets you there is fine by me
I NEVER overblow or think of "more air" for higher register.
I don't know what "screech trumpet sound" is....but I would avoid anything with that terminology to describe what comes out of my trumpet.
Screech was (upon a time) when you blew as high and loud as you could for the last sustained notes of a fast song, a dated term.
30 notes a night? I never counted but I want to play ALL the notes.
Playing lead trumpet doesn't mean playing Maynard's book. But rather playing whatever is in front of me. A strong competent lead player should have a high A whenever he needs it, strong sense of time, pitch, style, articulation, consistency, and leadership. With that you can cover 99% of anything put in front of you.
The double C?? Icing on the cake. Not necessary, but can add excitement to the band, and make cats like yourself marvel.[/quote
I agree with all you have said, this forum does seem to be a bit obsessed with the dbl c tho. And for some gigs they are not just icing but where you lived. That's where the guys I mentioned lived and why they played lead for who they did. As far as making cats like me marvel I met them all and knew 2 fairly well, very few these days make my jaw drop. But then anything but a VERY well played note above dbl c sound like a pitch instead of what I call a note. I think what you said about being able to play what is put in front of you musically is what we all strive for, but we also need to be realistic as to what we get called to play. How many get called to play lead or hi trumpet on the really hi stuff? We all want to play it but really How much call is there for it? I was only pointing out that many spend a lot of trumpet currency on something that is secondary and not primary in being a great player. Didn't mean a thing about anything u said - ok?
Rod
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Re: my chops, we all play differently. The post was referencing high range studies and I just replied what has worked for me. Take a look at how James Morrison plays and what his chops look like. I think there are similarities to his set up and what I describe. Although, we can never see inside a guy's mouth when one plays, but relaxed corners, and a raised lower lip and bunched chin seem to be what he is doing...
As I said, to play 99% of any lead book playing, a high A I'd about all that's needed. Any big band book, any musical etc I've ever played, I can't say I've ever needed or seen anything written above that, or is ever called for.
Knowing when to execute the all too tempting, and optional 8va can make a trumpeter add great excitement and energy, or look and sound out of place, egotistical and just stupid. I've heard the greatest lead trumpeters make poor choices in this regard, and I've heard those guys play earth shattering awe inspiring stuff as well. Timing, and wise choices are everything.
Most trumpet players WANT to have that option. Most trumpet players that bash high notes....are just jealous...and secretly pray that they have those high note chops that they bash in other players.
99% of all trumpet playing is high C and below. That's the meat and potatoes. But the other 1%?? Not everybody can afford or figure out how to attain steak and lobster. |
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GeorgeB
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:21 am Post subject: |
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I couldn't agree more with what NYC-player just said. In any of the local bands in my community you won't be called on to play much over a G above the staff as a lead player, with an occasional A perhaps. My goal is to be able to play nice clean high Cs which should put me in a good position to play a good G or A when called for.
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GeorgeB
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