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GTDon501
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Joined: 30 Apr 2013
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 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject: Question on use of the tongue |
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I am experiencing greater control in my flexibility studies when I make sure the front of my tongue completely touches the inner edge of my lower dental plate. By "dental plate" I don't mean a set of false teeth; I mean the inner arch formed by my teeth. The sensation is that the front of the tongue is wider than usual. When I do this, and simultaneously arch the front of my tongue, it seems that I am more effectively directing the airflow.
I know John has commented from time to time that one could put a straw under his tongue and there would be no leak. I have never heard or read of anyone else talking about this.
Is this a big detail? |
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solo soprano
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Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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You cannot whistle up and down without the tongue moving, and you cannot move from one note to another up or down on the trumpet without the tongue moving either. The action of the tongue in whistling is exactly the same you must produce when you play the horn.
The tip of the tongue is pressed lightly against the lower teeth, and the sides are touching the back upper teeth. This position forms the "wind tunnel" inside the mouth that we can make smaller or larger by moving the tongue up and down. When the wind tunnel is narrow (the tongue up), the wind pressure is greater, when the size of the wind tunnel is increased by lowering the tongue, the wind slows down.
"The tongue rising in the mouth to make the mouth shallow is the knack of playing high notes."
Clarke
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Jeff_Purtle
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Don't get too over analytical about the back of the tongue and where if it touches the teeth back there or not. What's going on in the very front of the tongue is what matters the most.
I never was conscious of the back edges of the tongue except for sometimes accidentally biting my tongue when doing big intervals. When my wisdom teeth were removed a few years ago that was never an issue again. I also didn't experience any change at all in my playing from all four teeth being removed.
Claude's "Watch The Tongue" phrase and stamp was intended to encourage you to focus on feeling the tongue and learning from it. He often stressed how vital that very front section of the tongue is to playing.
There is a direct relationship between getting a clean attack, accuracy in all registers, fast tonguing speed, ease in the upper-register, and even control over the sound. That front part of the tongue controls so much of that. When it's happening correctly you can usually hear it resulting in a more free open sound.
A challenge might be to get your K tonguing so clean and accurate that nobody could tell if you're using K tonguing. That in conjunction with the right exercises in a smart practice routine can really transform your playing.
Jeff
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Question on use of the tongue |
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| GTDon501 wrote: |
I know John has commented from time to time that one could put a straw under his tongue and there would be no leak. I have never heard or read of anyone else talking about this.
Is this a big detail? |
Not under my tongue. I placed the coffee stirrer straw into the side area of my mouth. I have written of my "coffee stirrer experiment" where I place a stiff but hollow coffee stirrer straw through the corner of my mouth into the region between my inner cheek and the sides of my molars. When I do this and play lower notes (with my tongue down fairly flat) air leaks out the straw showing there is air pressure throughout my oral region. But when I get up into the high register (around High C and higher) the air stops leaking out, proving that the tongue is arching and channeling the air straight to the center of my lips (there is no leakage from the straw at this point which shows there is no air pressure in the sides of my mouth at this point even though I am blowing hard in order to play notes in the upper register).
I think it is a "big deal" as it conclusively proves how proper tongue arch channels the air.
I don't think the coffee stirrer straw experiment is something anybody needs to do to develop his or her playing ability. It was just a demonstration experiment I thought of one time while in the midst of one of those multi-page debates on the TH with one of those dogmatic people who does not understand (nor wants to understand) how proper tongue arch is a key element in great brass playing.
As to the rest of your post and your query, Jeff's answer above mine is right on the money - there's no reason for me to try to add to it.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
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thehedge
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| solo soprano wrote: | | You cannot whistle up and down without the tongue moving, and you cannot move from one note to another up or down on the trumpet without the tongue moving either. The action of the tongue in whistling is exactly the same you must produce when you play the horn.
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Man, that must be my problem! I've never learned how to whistle! |
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solo soprano
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Joined: 26 Jan 2012
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Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| thehedge wrote: | | solo soprano wrote: | | You cannot whistle up and down without the tongue moving, and you cannot move from one note to another up or down on the trumpet without the tongue moving either. The action of the tongue in whistling is exactly the same you must produce when you play the horn.
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Man, that must be my problem! I've never learned how to whistle! |
https://youtu.be/hrUsfyVmeKg
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Jeff_Purtle
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Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:38 am Post subject: |
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Claude once told me about Marshall Hunt, who was one of his longtime students and listed in the testimonials in the back of Daily Trumpet Routines and also ¾ the way down on this page on my site.
https://www.purtle.com/claude-gordon-testimonials-and-endorsements
Marshall once asked Claude if it was ok that his teeth actually were visible on the sides when he was playing. Marshall was a little worried because someone had told him that was a problem and when he played for Claude it worked great and he could play to a double high c or something like that. Claude told him to not worry about it and that the tongue was channeling the pitch.
I think what it also shows is how the corners of the mouth really don't change the pitch like people sometimes think. The muscles in the face have to adjust to keep the lips vibrating.
Again, it's easy to get side tracked.
Claude also told me before about Clarke's demonstration of putting a horn on a string and playing something to show how easy you could play if done correctly. Clarke said he wished he had never done that because it got spread around that he had created some sort of "no pressure" system of playing. He was trying to make a point about how easy it could be. But, the audience and people after that didn't get his point.
Once you experience just how easy it can be to play it's exciting and you want others to know that it's possible. I'm sure that's the motivation for some of the things that get said that side track people.
In the past couple years I read a book called "The Power Of Habit" by Charles Duhigg. He makes the point of what he calls "keystone habits" and I believe that's what the Seven Items are in that once those items are focused on and set in motion to work correctly, then they tend to correct and improve secondary things related to those habits.
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Claude once told me about Marshall Hunt, who was one of his longtime students and listed in the testimonials in the back of Daily Trumpet Routines and also ¾ the way down on this page on my site.
https://www.purtle.com/claude-gordon-testimonials-and-endorsements
Marshall once asked Claude if it was ok that his teeth actually were visible on the sides when he was playing. Marshall was a little worried because someone had told him that was a problem and when he played for Claude it worked great and he could play to a double high c or something like that. Claude told him to not worry about it and that the tongue was channeling the pitch.
I think what it also shows is how the corners of the mouth really don't change the pitch like people sometimes think. The muscles in the face have to adjust to keep the lips vibrating. |
Thanks for attaching a name to the story Jeff!
As I have related in past TH threads where folks are arguing and claiming how "important" "tight corners" are, Claude told me how he had students whose corners were so loose and open that their teeth could be seen through the corners of their lips as they played Double High C. Maybe he told me of a single student, but if I recall correctly, he used the plural form - it has been a third of a century now...
Best wishes,
John
P.S. On another subject, guess who's been a guest at my house for the past week? Pete Bresciani! He and his girlfriend Lori came in from Las Vegas for a visit to Chicago. It's been great to see him. We've all been friends for a long, long time now. You and Mary have an open invitation if you get a yearning to see and experience our Windy City. |
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solo soprano
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Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeff_Purtle wrote: |
Claude also told me before about Clarke's demonstration of putting a horn on a string and playing something to show how easy you could play if done correctly. Clarke said he wished he had never done that because it got spread around that he had created some sort of "no pressure" system of playing. He was trying to make a point about how easy it could be. But, the audience and people after that didn't get his point. |
"Herbert L. Clarke was giving a demonstration at a university when he was ask this question: Mr. Clarke, can you hang your horn from a string, walk up to it with both hands behind your back, and play a high C?" Clarke answered, "I don't know, I never tried it. Why don't you hang my horn up, and I"ll try it." He did, and out came the high C. The very next mouth, every major music journal in the country carried this headline: "Herbert L. Clarke invents the non-pressure method of playing." Later Clarke, in telling one his students about the incident said, "I wish I had never done that. Everyone got the wrong idea. I was only answering a question." Then he emphasizes to his student, "There is no such thing as no pressure."
W.B. Knevitt
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https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When the wind tunnel is narrow (the tongue up), the wind pressure is greater, |
Not true.
| Quote: | | when the size of the wind tunnel is increased by lowering the tongue, the wind slows down. |
Are you are implying that you believe the pressure is then less with the tongue low? |
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EricV
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Posts: 227
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Wondered how long it would be before this guy appeared, we all know your views Daryl which are different to the majority in the CG forum.
Heres an idea, why not start the your own forum instead of filling up this one with your views, wonder how popular it would be?
EricV
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Wondered how long it would be before this guy appeared, we all know your views Daryl which are different to the majority in the CG forum. |
What "majority" view is that? That the tongue's effect is due to some mythical technical explanation that defies a law of physics? |
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EricV
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing mythical about it Daryl, Claude Gordon taught it, it was taught to him and so on.
I know it works for me as well, and interestingly on p6 of Irons 27 Groups of exercises, he writes "Although the lips and facial muscles are important factors in the performance of these exercises, the student should feel that he is varying the pitch of his instrument by raising and lowering the tongue"
This was published in 1938!
Sure, tongue arch isnt the only factor, its a combination of things, but it is a real part of the whole process.
Cheers
EricV
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | Wondered how long it would be before this guy appeared, we all know your views Daryl which are different to the majority in the CG forum. |
What "majority" view is that? That the tongue's effect is due to some mythical technical explanation that defies a law of physics? |
Moving the tongue makes the pitch change provided the tongue is quite forward in the mouth. I don't know why it works. Perhaps it is creating this change by effecting the lips or the jaw or something. Whatever. It still feels easier and more controllable to move the tongue for a lot of people.
If it works for people, then it doesn't mean it's breaking the laws of physics, it means your model of what is happening doesn't match what is happening. Find the model that does, and then we can have a sensible discussion. |
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EBjazz
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| EBjazz wrote: | I should point out that Claude never said that the tongue increases air pressure or speed, which it does not.
Eb |
"When the wind tunnel is narrow (the tongue is up), the wind pressure is greater, the same as when you put your thumb over the end of a garden hose to make the water pressure greater. Then, as we allow the size of the wind tunnel to increase by lowering the tongue, the wind slows down."
Bill Knevitt
"Claude also said that we learn by feel and not by theory, which is true."
EBjazz
We do not learn to play the trumpet, we develop to play the trumpet. This is not done through theory but done through practice.
In Claude's words, the player "will learn to feel every note."
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Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
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Last edited by solo soprano on Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:59 am; edited 3 times in total |
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EBjazz
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:00 am Post subject: |
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At this point we'll never know. All I know is what Claude taught me.
IMO, the forum should remain true to Claude's teaching and not delve into scientific explanations or theories. Then no one can argue their validity. I'm sure these arguments would just piss Claude off.
Eb
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EricV
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well said EricB, agree 100% this forum should remain true to Claudes teachings which you guys who took from him try to do, which we all really appreciate.
Thats the reason i suggested Daryl start his own forum, maybe called The Physics of Trumpet? .....lol
Cheers
EricV
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Harry Hilgers
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:16 am Post subject: Deleted |
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Last edited by Harry Hilgers on Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Harry Hilgers wrote: | in addition to the tongue movement, [when whistling] as you go up the lip aperture becomes smaller while for going down the lip aperture becomes bigger …… both the movement of the tongue as well as the changing in size of the lips aperture happen and, as CG would most likely say, "just do-it without thinking about it". So try it already and whistle your favorite tune .....  ....
.............see, I told you so........ |
Um, actually you didn't tell me so. First off, you didn't say it - you wrote it. And secondly, at least in my case, you are not entirely correct. I just tried it and as I whistle, when I whistle from the middle of my "whistle range" to the bottom, my lips do open up a bit. But from the middle of my whistle range to my highest attainable whistled note, the opening through my lips remains constant. Through that range the only thing I seem to do to change the note is arch the tongue more and blow harder.
In my experience, my lip (aperture) seems to behave similarly when playing trumpet. As I ascend toward around High C, I do feel the sensation of my face muscles surrounding my lips (especially in the corners) get tighter and tighter. But once I reach High C, they are as tight as they get. From that point onward, I just arch my tongue more and blow (a lot) harder.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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