I've been working through the first pages of Physical Approach for a while. I've only just received Brass Playing is No Harder... and read about three fourths through, and scanned the rest. I'm continuing therein, but there's a few things I don't get. Basically, Claude deplores the various contrived methods of training, and insists his simpler method is not only more rational, but it is the only one practical. If I could describe my understanding of his method in the beginning, the crux of the matter is to maintain the chest up and condition oneself for more wind power. There is further explanation of the tounge, wind control, lips, muscles, hands etc., but the chief thing starting out is wind power.
What does he mean by "chest up?" Does he mean up vertically or out? If I hold a finger in one place on my chest so I have a reference point, and I stand near a raised music stand so I have another reference point, I can barely do anything to move my chest so that the finger is going anywhere in relation to the music stand. I cannot move my chest out, nor can I move it up. Perhaps I can move it up as much as one inch if and only if I raise the shoulders, which Claude specifically forbids. This chest up business just seems to create tension on my back and shoulders without any upward movement.
What I can move is the abdomen. I can suck it in or stick it out. I had thought that I understood his breathing exercises to consist of sucking the abdomen in, so that my lower rib cage is prominent, and then blowing out without letting the abdomen out. Then pushing the abdomen out to breathe in and fill the lungs. But now I'm not sure that I'm not totally confused.
I am pretty sure that my anterior chest, which is defined by my sternum and upper ribs, is fixed firmly to the spine and does not move up unless the spine is also elevated somehow such as by the upward movement of the legs. Trying to move it up otherwise just creates tension in the back.
Rather than chest up, does he mean chest out? Again, the chest doesn't really move in relation to the back, so what I can actually do is move my neck so that my chin and jaw are drawn back, and my chest is relatively "out." This creates a lot of tension in the neck muscles.
I appreciate any help in understanding this properly.
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:14 pm Post subject:
I'm not particularly a Gordon person, but perhaps I can contribute here. Singers as well as trumpet players debate about the "low breath" vs a high chest. If you think about expanding the rib cage, you can see that your breath capacity would be increased. So if you need a lot of breath for a long phrase, an expanded rib cage will help. Expanding the rib cage will also give good control of the breath, as the expander vs the contracter muscles can regulate the breath in what the old bel canto masters called the "lotta vocale" or the vocal struggle between the contracting and expanding muscles. A balance, really.
Of course the diaphragm figures in here and must descend, but the chest is held up while the diaphragm descends. Then the diaphragm ascends with the exhale and the chest falls naturally as the last part of the exhale. At least that's my understanding of it and it is pretty instinctive after years of singing and brass playing. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:25 am Post subject:
Do a search on google and you'll find some vids of Maynard Ferguson discussing this very subject. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2322 Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:27 am Post subject:
chest up vs. rolling downward. Yes, it is more forward or out and around in all directions, but up with good posture - like your sternum is being supported on a hook attached to the ceiling (an image from a vocal lesson). Body position like that quintessential opera diva. Your lungs are behind your rib cage - thus it needs to expand to aid intake.
I contend that if you maintain that high/open chest (upper torso) "good posture" nature knows which muscles to engage and in what degree to exhale/support your sound. To me, thinking about "setting the diaphragm" or moving your belly, produces extra tension which breeds stress and unwanted tension in other places.
Akin to athletics, work on form, posture, and balance not which muscles are at work - think of a coaching visit to the mound in baseball.. if the pitcher is struggling with location, does the coach talk about which muscle is working? NO.. you focus on form, whether it's footwork, body or arm position. Shooting free-throws in basketball, you work on hand position, arm angle, body movement, feet, balance, where you're looking and the like - not the muscle in the back of your arm.
try this: Stand up tall (as tall as you can be), but your arms straight behind you, clasp your hands at your tailbone, gently push them away from your butt (keeping your arms straight) THEN take a full breath (don't control things, try to let nature take charge) - you should feel your chest expand (shoulders won't be able to rise) and your belly will naturally extend a little - a good exercise that helps teach the feeling of a solid breath. Maintain that inflated chest position as you exhale - "high chest" - good air and ample support for brass playing. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
There's an excellent interview on line with Lee Loughnane from the band Chicago. Lee studied with a former student of Claude Gordon. I believe his name is Paul Witt. Lee did this later in life, I gather from the interview he was in his late 40's. He talks about the chest up position as well as some breathing exercises he was given. Lee's not a screamer but is very consistent and strong to a G over high C. He mentioned that his chops never seem to get tired by the end of a show. He said he feels the fatigue in the muscles that are used to support the air. Lee also plays on pretty big equipment according to the article.
You can find the interview on Jeff Purtle's website.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:11 am Post subject:
When you keep your chest up in a position of good posture as you breathe in and then blow, you allow all the available muscles of expiration to contribute to the cause of blowing (creating air pressure). If you let your chest sink down into a position of poor posture, as you blow, you won't be allowing the main muscles of expiration (the Internal Intercostals - particularly the posterior (back) portion of them) to contribute. This limits how much air pressure you can generate and also severely limits endurance when playing a brass instrument.
Claude taught me this and it was confirmed for me when I took Anatomy and Physiology 1 and 2 last year in my pursuit of a second career in medicine or nursing.
The following links lead to computer animations showing the function of the muscles of expiration, one of which I "lifted" from my A&P course study material. Watch these two videos and I think it will clear some confusion for you:
The pertinent section of the second video is at 1:35, so you'll need to click on the link and watch it on YouTube to be taken directly to the pertinent section of it:
Or maybe you are now more confused after viewing them!
If so, here's a little demonstration exercise you can do yourself that will help illustrate how keeping your chest up in a position of good posture will help bring all the available muscles into the equation:
Quote:
1) Stand with your shoulders sagging and your chest sunk down (the way a 90 lb. weakling stands at the beach). Now take in a breath and blow all the air out and keep blowing when you're empty. Chances are, you'll only feel your front abdominal muscles and maybe the sides of your ribs doing the work, trying to squeeze the air out. The guy sitting in the band all slouched in his chair, maybe with his legs crossed - this is how he breathes and plays.
2) Now, stand up in a position of good posture with your chest up and erect - like a soldier at attention. If you have any doubt how to do this, simply stand up, and as you take a full breath with your arms at your side, swing them backwards a bit - this will force your chest up into a position of good posture (but stay relaxed!). Now, blow all the air out - but do NOT let your chest drop. As you run empty, again, keep blowing. This time, if you keep your chest up, in addition to the work you'll feel being down by your abdomen and front-sides of the rib muscles, you'll also feel muscles across your mid to lower back working. These are the posterior sections of the Internal Intercostal muscles - the main muscles of forced expiration and the most powerful ones available to do the job. Learn to breathe and blow correctly and these can and will develop to be very powerful.
One last note: Keeping your chest up does NOT mean getting all tense in the upper chest, shoulder area. For some reason, every time new students try to keep their chest up, they get all tense. It should be a feeling of relaxation in the uninvolved muscles of the shoulder and neck area. There are breathing exercises Claude gave us which if done correctly, help a player to learn to breathe, be completely full, and even be blowing as hard as possible, all the while maintaining relaxation in the uninvolved muscles.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:52 pm Post subject:
colab,
Here's Claude's Breathing Exercises:
Purpose of the Breathing Exercises is to train you to keep the chest up comfortably
while breathing. This will allow the lungs to expand to their fullest.
Standing Exercise
1. Stand against a wall with your shoulders back, chest up.
2. Breathe in slowly through your nose until you are comfortably full, with the chest up.
3. Let the air out through your mouth, but DO NOT LET THE CHEST DROP.
4. Repeat this for five breaths, gradually work up to ten.
5. Practice this exercise several times a day until keeping the chest up while breathing begins to feel natural.
Walking Exercise
1. Walk at a comfortable pace, and with each step take in a short breath
through your nose. Gauge it so you are full on the fifth step. (Keep the
chest up.)
2. Walk five more steps, holding the CHEST UP and the lungs full.
3. Walk five more steps while letting the air out through your mouth. Gauge
it so you are empty on the fifth steps. (Chest stays up.)
4. Walk five more steps, holding the chest up with the lungs empty.
5. Repeat the cycle, going two or three blocks.
6. Each week add one breath until you can go TEN IN, TEN HOLD, TEN OUT
and TEN EMPTY.
Other exercises are Aerobic Exercises, and Progressive Resistance Exercises.
Aerobic exercises help you breathe in. Progressive weight resistance exercises
help you blow out. _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music
Do yourself a favor and spend $30 or so on Jeff Purtle's book "Hit it hard and wish it well". It includes recorded videos of the Claude Gordon fundamental lessons. Then follow this book verbatim.
Ideally of course you find a Claude Gordon teacher. If you can't find a CG teacher in your area, please know that there are several CG teachers on this forum that give Skype lessons, like John Mohan, Jeff Purtle and others.
The biggest drawback of teaching yourself is that at some point you will either get very frustrated and quit playing, damage your lips, or both or you will continue but have to spend a lot of time undoing bad habits.
Other exercises are Aerobic Exercises, and Progressive Resistance Exercises.
Aerobic exercises help you breathe in. Progressive weight resistance exercises
help you blow out.
It would be great help to know these Progressive weight resistance exercises.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:46 pm Post subject:
Any exercises that develop the core muscles (sit ups, reverse sit ups, Pilates, etc.) will help develop many of the muscles that contribute to forced expiration. I think in order to develop the main muscles of forced expiration (the Internal Intercostals) you have to actually blow against resistance. Blowing up a balloon over and over would do it. So would properly practicing a good daily practice routine on a trumpet.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
