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scottfsmith Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 Posts: 472 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:11 pm Post subject: Ribbed bowl mouthpieces |
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Around 130 years ago French instrument maker Sudre made some unusual cornet mouthpieces with ribs in the bowl. For a lark I bought one on eBay a few years ago. It is a bizarre mouthpiece, with a throat and inner rim diameter far wider than any cornet mouthpiece made today. It is hard to play for long given these measurements but the thing that intrigued me about it is it had a surprisingly nice tone, very rich and lush. Fast forward to a few months ago, another one shows up on eBay looking like it has a smaller throat so I buy that one as well. It is easier to play but still has a very wide rim diameter, 2mm bigger than your average mouthpiece. So, I recently 3D printed some copies of the bowl/throat but pushing the rim in a bit. Here are is a picture.
The far right one is the Sudre #2, the first one I bought. The silver one is a Sudre #3, you can see the throat is more narrow (believe it or not, the #2 has a wider throat than any Bach mpc and the #3 looks to be about as narrow as the most narrow Bach!). The two on the left are 3D copies I printed, they are more or less identical to the bowl of the #3 except the top 3mm of the #3 is very gently sloped out whereas the copies are much more steep on the sides and make the overall rim diameter much less.
Check out those ribs! They are not minute bumps, they are maybe .5 mm high. Beyond the ribs the mouthpieces also have a radical backbore, it is an hourglass shape and the choke point is about a cm into the backbore beyond the bowl bottom (!). These backbores I did not copy, they put a delay in articulation that I do not like; my copies have a standard conical backbore.
I am in the middle of experimenting with and refining these designs, but the tone in particular is shockingly good, much richer and more vocal sounding than the typical piece. They put up more resistance to playing and it takes a bit of getting used to but not overly so. I wonder why nobody ever did anything similar in the last 120 years. Or did someone? Also does anyone know any history of these ribbed mouthpieces? I know Sudre was a well-known maker. He even invented instruments, including the Sudraphone. |
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snichols Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Posts: 586 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Are the ribs for the player's pleasure or the listener's pleasure? |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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SMrtn Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014 Posts: 367 Location: Spain
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:23 am Post subject: |
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snichols wrote: | Are the ribs for the player's pleasure or the listener's pleasure? |
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scottfsmith Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 Posts: 472 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:48 am Post subject: |
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I figured I was up for some "ribbing" on this
The main impression on the sound is louder, deeper, richer. The low notes in particular are really strong. There is no big imbalance in the tone as you go up and down a scale.]
At this point I am not yet checking out the intonation in detail, but it seems to not be too far off. It definitely changes how you play the notes due to increased pressure needed, and it is taking some time to get used to. One of my standard exercises is octave slurs and when I first do them they are wanting to take midway stops - its not slotting as strongly. With some practice I can get the octaves to slot fine. I expect weaker slotting might be a price to pay here.
The main downside I am having now is my endurance is down a bit. But its getting better the more I play on it. It is a more radical change compared to the usual mouthpiece swap and requires a lot more time to adapt to. |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1803 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Now add the backbore from a Zottola mouthpiece then a Pilczuck leadpipe - and you have a complete stepped set. |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 545
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | Now add the backbore from a Zottola mouthpiece then a Pilczuck leadpipe - and you have a complete stepped set. |
but only if they are in "lockstep" together! _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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scottfsmith Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 Posts: 472 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:33 am Post subject: |
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I hadn't heard of those Andy, interesting. Here is the Zottola:
Steps are a bit different than ribs but in the same general vein. I am thinking of making two variations on the ribs for comparison, a stepped one and a "sinusoidal" one with more like sin-wave bumps. |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1803 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:08 am Post subject: |
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scottfsmith
You might want to read Matt Frost's dissertation on trumpet backbores. In his study he divided the back bore into 5 equal segments and calculated the volume (cubic capacity) for each section. (Much like how the Zottola is designed.) It was a study on how the "shape" of the backbore has more effect on the sound than the total volume (cubic capacity).
Tinkering with the ID of the cylindrical segments or their length should give you observable differences in sound and it would be easier to calculate volumes using cylinders.
Doing this with 3D printing would also be a lot classier than using
screwdrivers ... Yeah ... well ... |
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DavidMorgan New Member
Joined: 07 Dec 2016 Posts: 1
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Wow! so cool Old things attracts me more. I am searching to buy old things. This details will be helpful for me. |
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scottfsmith Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 Posts: 472 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | scottfsmith
You might want to read Matt Frost's dissertation on trumpet backbores. |
Thanks for the pointer. His observations also correlate to how I am seeing major tone changes by fiddling with the volume on the opposite side of the throat.
I printed a sinusoidal one last night, smoothing out the ribs into a more even wave. It makes the effect overall less pronounced, both the advantages and disadvantages are less.
As I play on these more I am getting less happy with the response, its more effort and while its fun to hear the different sound its probably not going to be a long-term thing. But I am going to keep working on the designs to see if there is some better compromise. |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1803 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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scottfsmith
Since you have the freedom of 3d printing - should we expect a revival of the rifled backbore?
No - really - there was such a thing. |
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tubbs831 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 980 Location: Massachusetts/New Hampshire
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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snichols wrote: | Are the ribs for the player's pleasure or the listener's pleasure? |
You Win |
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scottfsmith Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 Posts: 472 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: |
Since you have the freedom of 3d printing - should we expect a revival of the rifled backbore? |
You name it I can print it I am no expert at 3d design but expect there is some twist operation I could do to add rifling. For all my current designs I just make a 2d slice and then just sweep it around an axis to make the mouthpiece model. One other design variation I am interesting in trying is an overhanging rim - get a wider cup but give your lips the usual inner diameter to blow against. It will be really easy to model. |
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
very interesting.
I was aware of the Guilbaud "rayées" mouthpieces (don't know how to translate "rayé" in this context) because they were sold by Couesnon but did not know anything about the Sudre.
I wonder what could be the advantages of such designs.
You can find both in the middle of this page:
http://jeanluc.matte.free.fr/articles/typologie/embouch.htm
You can sometime find a "rayée" mouthpiece on ebay.
Next time I see one, I will buy it, just to try!
Regards |
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:35 am Post subject: |
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Well,
I just find a sum up of the supposed advantages of the "rayées" mouthpieces:
Quick translation:
- remove any resistance to the production of sound
- improve tonguing accuracy (with a mathematical accuracy!)
- hit high notes and low notes effortless
- greatly decrease the fatigue of the lips
- give a better sound to your horn
- almost completely avoid missed notes
Well, the graal...
Regards |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 680 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Rifled bore... I have one, a flugel mouthpiece, and I really like it! Very comfortable to play, wonderful tone, but it is a bit hard to play it loud. It doesn't matter though, it's a flugel. |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 696 Location: Flinders, Australia
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Most of these things are just gimmicks designed to give the seller an edge over the opposition.
Search Brass instrument mouthpiece Patents, there are hundreds of weird and wonderful designs, most of which are figments of imagination with all sorts of claims
My Taylor Chicago 46 trumpet has a rifled leadpipe, a series of spiral grooves along the length, what does it do? Nothing for as soon as it is played the grooves fill with condensation and the leadpipe looks smooth.
Regards, Stuart. |
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oxleyk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4178
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Trumpet players -- Buying useless gizmos since 1456 |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1803 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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oxleyk
Somehow this can all be traced back to the League of Annoyed Clarinetists targeting their revenge at our greatest weakness. |
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