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Raggerty Regular Member
Joined: 07 May 2016 Posts: 99
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:38 am Post subject: My beginner's exercise. |
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(Devised by a beginner, that is.)
I do this exercise and wondered what people thought, whether it is useful/counter-productive/unoriginal.
I think the point is focus (though not analysis) on what is going on as we change pitch by breaking it down into elements. Maybe that focus is unconscious, or muscle memory focus, I don't know.
The exercise is slurring through the partials, but done four different ways. I sometimes go from bottom to as high as I can comfortably go, sometimes just slur between two notes. Do whatever slurring you normally do. Usual mixing it up by keeping valves down to slur different pitch combinations. Mix up tempo as you feel helps.
So here's my twist.
1. Slur using only breath. Try and fix embouchure, and try to fix tongue position. Basically crescendo to push into high notes, diminuendo to fall back. Where you fix lips and tongue is something you might have to experiment with.
2. Slur using only lips. So breath steady and tongue fixed. Where you fix breath and tongue at start as above.
3. Slur using only tongue position. So embouchure fixed and breath steady. Where you fix breath and lips at start as above.
4. (Very important) Do your normal, natural, relaxed slurring without worrying what components are making it all happen.
Obviously avoid excessive mouthpiece pressure at all times. Don't go crazy, stay relaxed, the aim isn't to push things, the aim is just focus.
Appreciate hearing your thoughts. I've been doing it for a few weeks and has helped me feel more relaxed and in control of the higher end of my range. Also have seen a good extension in my range lately, but that may also be down to a minor mouthpiece change, or just down to practice. |
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wastoute New Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2016 Posts: 8 Location: Yorktown, Virginia
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:19 am Post subject: |
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The thing I have noticed is that there are published scores of "Method" books with pages of exercises but almost all with no explanation of just what this particular exercise is supposed to accomplish. I find upon playing them through once you can figure out what aspect is being focused on and play it again with attention to that and then a third time with less exaggeration, incorporating that aspect more confidently. I keep telling myself I should start writing a paragraph for each. "This exercise emphasizes...." _________________ wastoute
Olds Ambassador Trumpet and Cornet
Olds Super 1940s
Olds Mendez 1960s
Olds Clark Terry Trumpet
Bach Strad 180 ML
Courtois Paris flugel
Bach 5C mpc for everything |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Well, guys, you might start by piking up an Irons book... |
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Arjuna Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 240 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Irons. |
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Raggerty Regular Member
Joined: 07 May 2016 Posts: 99
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Does Irons do something similar? Or is this just a recommendation? |
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roynj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Raggerty wrote: | Does Irons do something similar? Or is this just a recommendation? |
Irons pretty much advocates all of your concepts, breath control, use of the tongue in pitch variation, lip flexibility, and overall embouchure development. So it's not like you stumbled on something entirely original. You really ought to get a copy of Irons and give it a try. Full title is "Twenty Seven Groups of Exercises for Cornet and Trumpet" by Earl D. Irons. In the method you will also find his "Part II" which is a very nice set of exercises concerned with double and triple tonguing. Originally published in 1938, so it's been around a while. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that Irons is a great set of exercises but it doesn't directly speak to the OP's desire to isolate all the separate mechanisms involved in note transitions.
I do believe that there is some utility in doing what the OP has indicated with one minor caveat. I never find it useful to use air alone to transition between notes. Seems to me that the foundational skill for developing in this area has to be a with a strong and stable air supply. Isolation or emphasis on the other factors (lip, tongue, pivot, jaw, arm pressure (kidding!),...) certainly can be useful. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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shermantrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2014 Posts: 48 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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I use the idea of focusing on separate aspects of slurring regularly with my beginning students. What you describe is remarkably similar to what I teach them.
I do include the "air alone" aspect, although I don't think you can really lip slur well with just air alone (which is probably what cheiden is referring to). Other physical changes will occur in a natural response to the air work you're doing without you consciously thinking about them, allowing the slur to work. My air work with these beginners in this context is mostly the "step on the gas going uphill" concept, so that they don't shy away from higher notes or slack off the air as they focus on other concepts of slurring. (I do demonstrate slurring higher while decrescendoing so they know it's possible, and necessary to learn at some point.)
You can only think really well about one thing at a time, so your idea is right on the mark! |
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roynj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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I also agree that isolating specific technical elements can be a great help in advancing a player. As for air-only slurs, I have used them myself but only as a means to get a better feel for what "more" or "less" air feels like. Air only slurs as a general practice is a pretty exhausting way to play. At least to me it is. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:45 am Post subject: Re: My beginner's exercise. |
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Raggerty wrote: | (Devised by a beginner, that is.)
I do this exercise and wondered what people thought, whether it is useful/counter-productive/unoriginal.
I think the point is focus (though not analysis) on what is going on as we change pitch by breaking it down into elements. Maybe that focus is unconscious, or muscle memory focus, I don't know.
The exercise is slurring through the partials, but done four different ways. I sometimes go from bottom to as high as I can comfortably go, sometimes just slur between two notes. Do whatever slurring you normally do. Usual mixing it up by keeping valves down to slur different pitch combinations. Mix up tempo as you feel helps.
So here's my twist.
1. Slur using only breath. Try and fix embouchure, and try to fix tongue position. Basically crescendo to push into high notes, diminuendo to fall back. Where you fix lips and tongue is something you might have to experiment with.
2. Slur using only lips. So breath steady and tongue fixed. Where you fix breath and tongue at start as above.
3. Slur using only tongue position. So embouchure fixed and breath steady. Where you fix breath and lips at start as above.
4. (Very important) Do your normal, natural, relaxed slurring without worrying what components are making it all happen.
Obviously avoid excessive mouthpiece pressure at all times. Don't go crazy, stay relaxed, the aim isn't to push things, the aim is just focus.
Appreciate hearing your thoughts. I've been doing it for a few weeks and has helped me feel more relaxed and in control of the higher end of my range. Also have seen a good extension in my range lately, but that may also be down to a minor mouthpiece change, or just down to practice. |
Pretty smart beginner!
As to a good Flexibilities book for you, if you can comfortably slur to at least a G on top of the staff, as other have suggested, Twenty-Seven Groups of Exercises by Earl D. Irons would be an excellent book. Available here:
https://www.amazon.com/27-Groups-Exercises-Earl-Irons/dp/1581060572
If you have any trouble slurring exercises up to the G on top the staff, then a better book to start with would be Fundamental Flexibilites by Matt Graves. Jeff Purtle normally offers this book as an e-book (PDF File) on his website but he is revamping his store section right now. I do have hard copies of the book and I could sell you one, so if you need this book, send me a Private Message.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Raggerty Regular Member
Joined: 07 May 2016 Posts: 99
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers guys. Did feel like one of those "aha" moments that come to us learning trumpet players. Yeah can slur to G and sometimes that dodgy 7th harmonic above it. Will check out Irons, seems to be a universal recommendation. |
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jungledoc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2014 Posts: 613 Location: Papua New Guinea
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:28 am Post subject: |
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+1 For Irons, but he's not alone:
Advanced Lip Flexibilities, by Charles Colin
Lip Flexibility on the Trumpet, by Walter M. Smith _________________ Andy
I'll admit it. It's a TR300, but it wants to be a Strad when it grows up. |
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Dbfinn Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 Posts: 58 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:19 am Post subject: |
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jungledoc wrote: | +1 For Irons, but he's not alone:
Advanced Lip Flexibilities, by Charles Colin
Lip Flexibility on the Trumpet, by Walter M. Smith |
And "Embouchure builder" by Lowell Little |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:48 am Post subject: |
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For similar exercises, I'm also a big fan of the book by Bai Lin. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Bai Lin, and Arban studies on the slur. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | I do this exercise and wondered what people thought, whether it is useful/counter-productive/unoriginal.
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Completely counter-productive. This approach will surely cause a confusion of what controls pitch, and will not encourage correct coordination.
The tongue alone does not influence pitch, ever.
The embouchure muscular effort and the tongue reaction are a coordinated movement, you should never attempt to isolate one from the other.
Blowing effort is associated with dynamics ONLY. DO NOT attempt to train yourself that blowing effort is related to pitch. That is a recipe for inaccuracy. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: My beginner's exercise. |
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Raggerty wrote: |
1. Slur using only breath. Try and fix embouchure, and try to fix tongue position. Basically crescendo to push into high notes, diminuendo to fall back. Where you fix lips and tongue is something you might have to experiment with.
2. Slur using only lips. So breath steady and tongue fixed. Where you fix breath and tongue at start as above.
3. Slur using only tongue position. So embouchure fixed and breath steady. Where you fix breath and lips at start as above.
4. (Very important) Do your normal, natural, relaxed slurring without worrying what components are making it all happen. |
You're describing some things that aren't possible. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Raggerty Regular Member
Joined: 07 May 2016 Posts: 99
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:25 am Post subject: |
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One thing I have come to love about being a beginner in trumpet playing, is that people with a great deal more experience than me can disagree categorically.
It kind of frees me up. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | It kind of frees me up. | Good. Then you will recognize what is logically and reasonably occurring.
You should also recognize the musical facility of separating dynamics and pitch. If you attempt to associate the two, in a "muscle memory" sense, then will not be able to play dynamic contrast in tune (or on the correct partial).
As for the tongue, it is related to what the embouchure muscles are doing, just let it happen naturally you don't have to give it any attention.
Do YOU really believe that when you change pitches that the tongue it the cause? |
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Raggerty Regular Member
Joined: 07 May 2016 Posts: 99
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:49 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Good. Then you will recognize what is logically and reasonably occurring.
You should also recognize the musical facility of separating dynamics and pitch. If you attempt to associate the two, in a "muscle memory" sense, then will not be able to play dynamic contrast in tune (or on the correct partial).
As for the tongue, it is related to what the embouchure muscles are doing, just let it happen naturally you don't have to give it any attention.
Do YOU really believe that when you change pitches that the tongue it the cause? |
I know you want an argument, but I'm not going to engage with you on this issue. I don't have the skills to do so. Perhaps others with more knowledge of trumpet methodology will. |
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