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Frustrating Pedal Tones!!!!!!



 
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:17 am    Post subject: Frustrating Pedal Tones!!!!!! Reply with quote

Hi Everybody, I am a studying CG and feel I am missing something with the Pedals. I believe I need to be able to play pedals with a normal embouchure. However, it seems like I have to drastically change my embouchure to get double pedals out. I pooch my lips out and kind of use the inner part of my lips. Once I do this I have to reset to get back to normal. With the middle pedal, it should be easier I think, but, when I drop my jaw, I lose my buzz. I can hit these notes, but only separately. I would like to play C, pedal C, double pedal C, then back up. Any suggestions on fluidly playing these notes? I think I am missing something simple, I am ready to break through the Pedal Wall!!
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it is the CG forum, but you don't need them.
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This probably isn't CG-approved but I think of the first octave of pedals as bending exercises. Using your normal embouchure, start on low C and bend down to G, then play low B and bend down to F#, Bb to F, and so on down through the combinations. Pedal G is the first note you can actually play on the horn and you should be able to play it with a normal embouchure.

After ten years of my comeback I still haven't determined if pedals are at all beneficial.

Kent
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acritzer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took lessons for several years with Bruce Haag, a CG certified teacher. FWIW I found the pedals to be helpful but not revolutionary. I'm not sure if I just never "got it" as they have been proclaimed as extremely beneficial to the development of the upper register. I don't think I ever found that to be the case.

A few misc. points that I believe-
-If you are adjusting your embouchure very much you are probably doing them incorrectly.
-As they develop, going for a nice full sound is the goal. Not necessarily in pitch.
-It's not a big deal if the double/triple range never come into pitch.
-Overall, I found them to helpful in staying relaxed...and finding a good "set place" for my embouchure.
-When you start to get the hang of it, it shouldn't be and really isn't that difficult to connect the pedal register to the normal register.

Hope that helps some.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worked for years with a highly respected Gordon student. He never had me work below pedal C. I sense is that until the first pedal range is working correctly, going lower could invite trouble. FWIW my approach is still in a state of flux since I've never been able to truly approach my teacher's sound and facility. I've only recently gotten to the point when I'm starting to feel the center of the lips come together in a way that I think could pave the way for a strong in-tune pedal C, and a more supple and robust embouchure.
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Arjuna
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: Frustrating Pedal Tones!!!!!! Reply with quote

Always use one embouchure and always use normal fingerings all the way down to double pedal C. Do not force the pedals just let things progress naturally. Study Arturo Sandoval's pedal tones especially when he does his Maggio routine.


lexluther wrote:
Hi Everybody, I am a studying CG and feel I am missing something with the Pedals. I believe I need to be able to play pedals with a normal embouchure. However, it seems like I have to drastically change my embouchure to get double pedals out. I pooch my lips out and kind of use the inner part of my lips. Once I do this I have to reset to get back to normal. With the middle pedal, it should be easier I think, but, when I drop my jaw, I lose my buzz. I can hit these notes, but only separately. I would like to play C, pedal C, double pedal C, then back up. Any suggestions on fluidly playing these notes? I think I am missing something simple, I am ready to break through the Pedal Wall!!
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brother studied with Bruce (he thinks) in Saratoga, and his range was always better than mine. Of course, if I had practiced at all in HS....

I've been at the pedal scene for a number of years, thanks to Deb Wagner and others, and I find them important to me, but not indispensable. I can easily overdo them, the danger being that you get TOO open, and potentially swollen. Arturo taught me to follow them up with very soft Clarke and that made sense to me, FWIW

ed
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A big Thank You to everyone for your thoughts. I am a 47 year old Trumpet Student 2 years into private lessons. I've been on the CG Pedagogy for about 8 months. I can see real solid progression in all areas EXCEPT pedal tones. That is where I am getting frustrated. I am a very patient learner and realize improvement takes time to develop. I guess I just don't want the pedals to hold me back. I admit, even though I play them everyday they are my least amount of practice. My instructor says I am making them more difficult than they are. It seems to me they don't develop like the upper register, a slow and steady climb. That's a why I think I'm missing something. There's a peice of the puzzle I'm missing. Once again, thanks so much for your comments.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
This probably isn't CG-approved but I think of the first octave of pedals as bending exercises. Using your normal embouchure, start on low C and bend down to G, then play low B and bend down to F#, Bb to F, and so on down through the combinations.

Kent


Actually, what you wrote is right in line with the way Claude Gordon introduced pedal notes.


https://s25.postimg.org/6ixtsrkjz/SA009_top_half.jpg

A few personal observations from my experience teaching students how to play pedals:

Most come to me with concerns similar to the OP regard letting their lips and embouchures change too much, especially when descending into the double pedals. I find most of the concerns to be without merit. The embouchure does have to adjust a lot to reach the bottom pedals. With time and practice once will "connect" the registers and be able to easily slur into and out of the pedals into the normal and even highest ranges of the instrument. During Skype lessons I point out to new students that I had the same issues and concerns when first practicing the pedals, and then I'll play chromatics from the bottom pedals to well above high C to show them it can be developed.

I also find many students trying to play the Pedal C through Pedal Gb in tune instead of letting them lay (very) flat. They should have a full, relaxed sound and it's okay to be several steps flat with them.

Quick Edit: Note that the instructions I referenced above are only for the first 5 pedal notes, Pedal F through Pedal Db. The book goes on to instruct how to play the next series from Pedal C down to Pedal Gb, and then the final series from Double Pedal F on downward. Solo soprano in his post made a few posts below this sums up quite nicely how to properly practice all three sections of the pedal register.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Last edited by John Mohan on Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:
I know it is the CG forum, but you don't need them.


I wonder what the reaction would be on the Reinhardt Forum if someone wrote a similar post.

"Categorizing embouchures into Types? You don't need to."

Or the Callet forum?

"I know this is the Callet forum, but..."

Your post is inappropriate. If you want to communicate your negative opinion of CG material to the OP, it doesn't belong in this dedicated forum - you should have sent him a Private Message.

When it comes to the Pedal Note exercises as done in the way Claude taught, holding the last notes until all air is gone and then trying to crescendo the note to really work the blowing muscles, I don't need them either - that is, unless I want to be able to play full power notes beyond F# above High C and have the endurance to do two heavy shows a day, reaching the highest notes in the show with full power right up to the last note of the evening.

When I stop doing the Systematic Approach exercises my range settles at a full power F# above High C and I have endurance issues when playing 8 shows a week. When I practice the Systematic Approach exercises regularly, my endurance issues disappear and my range slowly climbs up. In 2005 when I did the exercises almost every day for about a year my range grew to where I was often getting to G above Double High C at the top of my Part Two exercises, with a performance quality Double High C any time I wanted it. Right now, after doing the SA exercises regularly again for several months I can play full power Double A's any time, and often full power Double Bb's and sometimes B's. If I stop doing the exercises, it's kind of like what happens to Cinderella's horses at midnight - the extraordinary high notes and endurance disappear.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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solo soprano
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedals Tones are an integral part of total development. You must achieve them gradually and approach them correctly. If not, you are better off not to play them at all. If properly practiced, Pedal Tones will develop a better vibration, giving you a bigger sound in all registers, enhance tonal placement and accuracy, relax the muscles and correct your embouchure formation by forcing more upper lip into the mouthpiece.

Clarke, Claude Gordon & Bill Knevitt believed first we must lay a solid foundation by playing low which includes the pedal register. How do we build range? From the Bottom Up!

There is not one, but actually three pedal registers. Within the pedal register there are three different feels, and notes that are in each of these registers feel very much alike. The first pedal register are notes from F below low C on down through D flat. The notes from F below low C on down through D flat are not on the the horn. You have to make them. Since these notes have the feel of bending a note flat, the correct way to develop the right "feel" is to bend tones flat. Play a low C and slur down to B natural, second valve. This establishes the pitch. Now play the same two notes without using any valves for B. (Bend C flat a half step.) Now continue down with the same idea, first using valves to establish the pitch, then bending the notes flat, using no valves. When you get down to low G, you will have played it as though it were a pedal tone. Now start on low B natural and continue down through low F sharp in the same manner. When you play low F sharp with the second valve, you will be playing it as though it were a pedal tone. Start on low B flat next, and continues down to pedal F. You will notice that the last two notes (B flat to F) are different in that there are no valve changes. To establish the pitch, we play an octave above first. You will also notice that pedal F is nothing more than a low B flat bent flat a perfect fourth, pedal E is a low A bent four notes flat, and so on. Play the octave above first to determine the pitch, then bend the notes into the pedals.
The second feel you must develop is for the pedal C (C below low C) down to pedal F sharp. These notes, being the fundamentals of the harmonic series of overtones, are on the horn. Thus they feel totally different from those of the first register. Your first pedal C will generally "pop out," but it will be extremely flat -- as much as 4 or 5 notes. Do not let this concern you, for this is the correct feel and approach. To try and play this note in tune at first would be the wrong approach. let it hang flat for a long time, weeks and even months, working for a big sound and vibration. It will automatically work itself up to pitch as you develop.
The third register, pedal F below pedal C on down are very easy. They are in tune, and it is a matter of time and practice in developing the big vibration necessary to play them. While I play to third pedal C, for the purpose of development it is not necessary to go any lower than second pedal C (two octaves below low C), because nothing further develops from this point

How to practice pedals:

Do not use different fingerings for the pedals. (low G 1-3, and low F sharp 1-2-3)
Do not roll your lips out in any way.
Do not push the lips forward in trying to produce a "loose" vibration.

How to bend notes flat:

Keep your wind moving.
Do not loosen your lip.
Think "aw" as you slur down.
Drop your jaw slightly. down.

To play your 1st Pedal C:

Play a low C with a full sound, and while doing so:

-Relax all your muscles
-Drop your jaw - slightly
-Think "AW"
-Keep your wind moving
-Keep the lips vibrating
-Slide the mouthpiece slightly higher on your upper lip


Read about the correct approach to the pedals in "The Truth About How to Play Double High C on Trumpet" chapter 4 page 19-28 only $6.95 as a e-book, a accompanying audio mp3 download for $3 is available.

http://www.latorremusic.com/La_Torre_Music/Upper_Register_Development.html

audio recording "How to Develop Your Range To Third Pedal C" http://www.latorremusic.com/La_Torre_Music/Audio_Lessons.html

Now go to work on those Pedal Tones.
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Outstanding info!! Thanks guys!!
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