Coming Back, but with a problem

[meddle]

Thanks to all for the tips! This Reeves paper trick - When referring to "gap", is that talking about how much the paper effectively lengthens the main tube or in other words moves the mouthpiece out of the reciever? That's how I'm understanding it, and am unsure just because that doesn't seem like something you would refer to as a gap.

I also came to an agreement with a legend in our area to coach me!
Jack Schantz is the director of jazz studies at the University of Akron. He's played with Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey, and Woody Herman. He is a fantastic horn player and it's really an honor for me that he's agreed to work with me. So at least I know that if I can't fix this issue myself, I will be able to with his help.

I've tried everything that you all suggested in this thread, and actually I have had moments where I got rid of the double buzz, but then it came back. So I know it can be corrected, but I still don't really know what I did that eliminated it because doing it again didn't work. I know it's very difficult to diagnose a problem like this over the internet, so I thank you all for your efforts in attempting to do just that. I'm having my first lesson this coming week, so I'll let you know what he says about it.
And Usedtobegood, please clarify my question above and I'll try that trick later today when I practice.
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Vintage Conn 22B
Vintage Courtois Flugelhorn.
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[altamira_28]

Good luck with it, meddle. I know how frustrating that feeling can be when you can't control something you feel should be so elementary.

Keep working at it, bud!!

Josh
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Monette B3S3, C3S3, B4LS1, B4LSS1, B4LVS1, BP6, Bob Reeves 43WF, Denis Wick 3B Heavy Top Cornet

[HERMOKIWI]

What you've described really doesn't sound like it's a true "double buzz." I arbitrarily call a double buzz a "sub-tone buzz" because it has a sub-tone pitch that is much like the constant underlying tone of bagpipes (sort of a sub-tone drone) compared to the main tone. Others may have a different perception/experience with double buzzing, so the foregoing should be taken as just my personal perception/experience. Other TH'ers should feel free to disagree/provide their own experience with double buzzing.

If a gap adjustment solves the problem then it would seem to be a mechanical problem unrelated to embouchure. The symptoms you describe, however, just don't sound like a mechanical issue, as opposed to an embouchure issue. If the "static" doesn't come back now that you adjusted the gap, then I guess it was a gap issue. I've just never heard of a gap issue creating the problems you've described in your tone.

Keep us informed.
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HERMOKIWI

[meddle]

Thanks. Based on your description, I am now thinking that it isn't a double buzz, because I think I've had that in the past and this is different. It really is more accurately described as a static noise. And since it happens regardless of the horn or mouthpiece, I'm also with you that it is an embouchure issue (as much as I wish it wasn't). I have my first lesson on Tuesday, so I'll hopefully know more after that.
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Bach Strad ML 43
Vintage Conn 22B
Vintage Courtois Flugelhorn.
Bach Omega
King Student Model Beater

[Usedtobegood]

The Reeves paper trick expands the gap between the end of the mouthpiece and the start of the leadpipe. So, it doesn't lengthen the leadpipe, just the gap. Does that make sense?

I played an hour long Memorial Day Concert yesterday and no buzzing sound.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[Jeff_Purtle]

What's your daily practice consist of?
How regular are you with whatever you do?
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[LeeC]

What notes does your double buzz occur on?

The double buzz is indicative of either over or under training. When you push your physical limits (either knowingly or not) the chops may refuse to cooperate. Enter the double buzz. A harmless annoyance is all.

We wouldn't expect to run a marathon after twenty years of inactivity. So allow your chops some time to recoup their old form.

As for the pencil exercise? Yes do it but only once per week the first six weeks or so. And not the day before a serious performance or practice burden.

Those that derive no benefit from the pencil exercise probably fall into one of two categories;

A. Those born with natural chops who get a physical assist from their chop set-up condition. Thus they can't speak for the rest of us as they have no point of reference. They don't need especially strong mouth corners and facial muscles because their existing chops get a major boost by nature.

B. Those who've never tried the pencil exercise and can't verify it's very valuable effects.



Conclusion: Even Maynard got the double buzz from time to time. Those cats who carry the most burden are prone to it. You're in good company.

You can hear his double buzz here at approximately 3:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBD22lHryRI

[meddle]

Well, so far my daily practice consists of a lengthy warm up and then doing excercises from my Clarke Technical Studies book, trying to play as soft as I can.
The buzz seems to happen on almost any note, but is worse in the middle register and when playing softly.
Now, I had my first lesson yesterday. We worked on this problem alone for 1 hour and 20 minutes. I'm not sure yet, because it's going to take some practice to verify, but we think it's a combination of a narrow aperture, incorrect breathing, and tension in my embouchure. I think all of these things have been mentioned in this thread, and I've worked on them, but maybe just didn't get the combination right. By the end of the lesson I was able to play without the double buzz, but it did resurface every once in a while.
The changes I have to make really require a change in mouthpiece and lip position, which is what is going to take some time.
We think that maybe the reason I have this now and never before is a result of switching to a smaller mouthpiece and that I have major allergies that I didn't used to have. Allergies that narrow my airways, making it hard to deep breath. But that part is kind of speculation.
Here's something that I found interesting. My teacher, who is well known in my area and has played with Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey and Woody Herman, plays lead using a 1-1/2C bach mouthpiece and a standard Bach Strad. In my lesson he nailed a double C without much effort. So much for fancy and expensive mouthpieces!
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Vintage Conn 22B
Vintage Courtois Flugelhorn.
Bach Omega
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[EdMann]

What you're going through is common to many comeback players I've encountered, including myself early on, until I got a great lesson with a couple of fine pros. I can tell you without hesitation that while 90% of playing is using your air correctly, your embouchure has to be in the position to use that air. If it's tense and tired, you're going to get this over and over. If you practice without proper rest, you're doomed to a Groundhog Day scenario. What position, you ask? A resting position.

The advice that was given me, and has worked stunningly, was the above, and to leave room for the upper lip to perform properly, which means, get the lower lip out of the way! When tense, it's easy to jam it up there and there's your double, or static buzz. If one thinks of a gorgeous, round sound when playing, the jaw drops, the chin often lowers and there it is, pure and pretty. Try practicing attacks by putting your horn to your chops and playing within 1 or 2 seconds, no time to screw it in, or tense up, just put it up and play with your lips in a resting position and your jaw open a bit, even more so as you ascend. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Counterintuitive? Yes, but so is leaning downhill when you're skiing, or relaxing when you high jump. This advice has worked for me and solve a multitude of problems I encountered coming back to this magnificent brass tube.

good luck,
ed

[meddle]

Edmann,
That is pretty much what my teacher had me doing. But I have a question - For me to play well and without the double buzz, I have to play much differently than I did 30 years ago when I was a pretty decent player. Why is that?
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Vintage Conn 22B
Vintage Courtois Flugelhorn.
Bach Omega
King Student Model Beater

[Jeff_Purtle]

What's involved in your lengthy "warm up"?

Are there any kinds of tongue level studies like Walter Smith, Charles Colin, Earl Irons or similar material? All that stuff matters too.
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Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle

[meddle]

So far I've just been using an embouchure building book that I already owned.
_________________
Bach Strad ML 43
Vintage Conn 22B
Vintage Courtois Flugelhorn.
Bach Omega
King Student Model Beater

[HERMOKIWI]

I think that your teacher is on the right track. I don't see the "static" issue as the same problem as a true double buzz. Your issues are certainly aperture/tension/lip positioning. Although the benefits of strength and airflow are undeniable, what you're experiencing is not a strength or airflow issue. Your lower lip is getting in the way of your upper lip, pure and simple.

This is a difficult problem to cure because it is so hard to diagnose accurately. The mouthpiece cup diameter could be too small or it could be too large or it might not make much difference. Same with the cup depth issue.

One thing you can experiment with is to play a flugelhorn with a deep cup mouthpiece and see if the static goes away, gets worse or stays the same. If things get better then getting your lower lip out farther in a trumpet mouthpiece may be the direction you need to go to get your lower lip out of the way and improve things and, if so, you would want to consider going to a deeper cup. The fact that you switched to a smaller mouthpiece than the one you used years ago and that you didn't have the problem years ago makes the mouthpiece change suspect.

Keep us informed. This is a very interesting topic and a problem that affects and frustrates many players.
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HERMOKIWI

[meddle]

Thanks. I'll be practicing what he taught me tonight for the first time, so I'll see how it goes. The mouthpiece switch doesn't seem like it should have caused this, as I went from a 1-1/4c to a 5c. I also used to play on a Zottolla 64B. I didn't have the problem with either of those pieces, but I do now, at least for the brief time I tried them. I think something has changed with my lips and/or breathing. When I position my lips to eliminate the problem , it feels totally unnatural. I really can't even play with it like that. So I'm hoping I don't have to basically start over to get rid of it.
_________________
Bach Strad ML 43
Vintage Conn 22B
Vintage Courtois Flugelhorn.
Bach Omega
King Student Model Beater

[HERMOKIWI]

What is the change in positioning of your lips that you are doing to eliminate the problem? Is it repositioning of the mouthpiece? If so, are you setting the mouthpiece higher on your lips or lower on your lips? What was your normal setting? 1/3 top + 2/3 bottom in the cup? 50-50? 2/3 top + 1/3 bottom in the cup? Something else? What ratio are you trying to have now?

Does the change involve rolling out the bottom lip more? Or curling the bottom lip in more? Or some other change?

If I can reproduce the problem based on your description of how you're setting when the problem occurs I may have a more exact understanding of how the problem is developing in your case and maybe I can make some more exact suggestions.
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HERMOKIWI

[meddle]

The fix was more about letting my lips relax. I was taught to use a tight smile embouchure, but now I'm trying to change that to a more correct embouchure.
However, my double buzz was with my old embouchure. I've now corrected that, thanks to my teacher's guidance.
I play probably too much on the upper lip. We tried positioning the piece more on the lower lip, but it didn't help the problem. What worked was relaxing my lips inside the piece and opening up the aputure some. That, and improved breathing.
In the few days I've had to practice since my lesson on Tuesday, I've almost totally eliminated the double buzz. I've also shown my son how I did it and it solved it for him also. I'm a happy trumpeter now.
_________________
Bach Strad ML 43
Vintage Conn 22B
Vintage Courtois Flugelhorn.
Bach Omega
King Student Model Beater

[BrianCade]

[RandyTX]

Thanks for the correction, but that post was over a year ago.
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[trumpet_cop]

Curious to know how your progress is after a few years of working on all the materials and exercises mentioned. I am currently also experiencing a sort of static, and was wondering if the tension in embouchure could be related to the way the air column is vibrating. I and others notice the anomaly up close but don't hear it in larger spaces such as concert or recital halls.

[Craig Swartz]

From 2011? Perhaps he just finally cleaned the paperclip out of his bell tail...