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Differences between cornet and trumpet


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Mr. PC
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Differences between cornet and trumpet Reply with quote

I am curious what the main differences between the cornet and the trumpet are.

Thanks.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Google can provide you with a better explanation, but the tube size/shape is the main difference.
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Mr. PC
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
Google can provide you with a better explanation, but the tube size/shape is the main difference.


Thanks. I suppose I should have just done that in the first place.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sound projects on one and surrounds on the other. I used a cornet playing in a local community band and my section mates kept saying I was playing too loud. I finally figured out that they were hearing the cornet more because of the above issue.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robb Stewart has a good article on this:

http://www.robbstewart.com/Essays/TrumpetSchmumpet.html
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottfsmith wrote:
Robb Stewart has a good article on this:

http://www.robbstewart.com/Essays/TrumpetSchmumpet.html


I love this article, always have.

A cornet uses a cornet mouthpiece. A trumpet does not.

Tom
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conventional wisdom is that cornets have more conical tubing, while trumpets are more cylindrical. But there's a well known restorer of antique instruments, Robb Stewart, who wrote a blog post explaining that the convention wisdom doesn't really play out in his examination of popular instruments. He found that, other than the wrap and the mouthpieces, cornets and trumpets are more similar than the conventional wisdom suggests.

Other design differences include different wrap of tubing, different rate of taper and bell flare shape, and a difference between the length of tubing before the valve casing vs. the length of bell after the casing. And cornet players often use deeper V-shaped mouthpieces compared to what they use with a trumpet.

I think cornets are easier to play in the middle and low register but more difficult to play in the upper register than trumpets. Lots of fun!
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trumpetwang
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Highly agree with what dstdenis says! And I think that the article by Robb explains very well already.
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1jazzyalex
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I read that article way back when too. Basically these days we're playing cornetlike trumpets and trumpetlike cornets, except in cases where they've been specifically built to be straight or conical tubing.

Another big difference is, a cornet is 5" shorter than a trumpet which means it's a lot easier to carry in some cheap backpack you get at a garage sale!

If your cornet has a "shepherd's crook" design, it will tend to look a bit more "interesting" so if you're busking that might get you a few points, and again with the shortness, it will stick out 5" less into foot traffic if you're in a crowded place.

Lastly, I may be all wet, but in my experience cornets don't sound as good below the staff as trumpets. I actually hope I'm wrong in this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpet, cornet and flugel all played on the same mouthpiece so that the only difference is the tubing and flares:


Link


There is clearly some difference, but some cornets are more trumpet like than the one I was playing here.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
Trumpet, cornet and flugel all played on the same mouthpiece so that the only difference is the tubing and flares:


Link


There is clearly some difference, but some cornets are more trumpet like than the one I was playing here.


Sorry, what did you say? I only speak English.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
Trumpet, cornet and flugel all played on the same mouthpiece so that the only difference is the tubing and flares:


Link


There is clearly some difference, but some cornets are more trumpet like than the one I was playing here.



Gordon! Thanks for the illuminating demonstration! However, to me, a cornet player and a trumpetplayer your sound seems amazingly uniform on the various horns! Furthermore I´ve been told myself that sometimes I play my trumpet as a cornet. And warned by a conductor (dear to me) not to sound like I was blowing a trumpet....when playing the cornet...That round, sweet, cantabile, somewhat dark sound which comes out of your horns - what´s the cause of that?? Cornet your principal (no pun) instrument?
As for myself, I perform almost all my practice on my cornet, nowadays Wick Ultra, in younger days Bach 1 1/4 - clearly a much brighter projection.
I bought my old warbird, the King, because I found the projection not that far from my cornets (at that time). Right now pondering over a Bach 1B commercial, with definitively another kind of projection, more open, brigther, a "broader tone spectrum" (if that would be a legitimate expression).
Myself I find high note playing easier on the trumpet. the cornet more agile in very fast runs.
So, very much aware my hearing is not what it used to be, I´m curious about your practice patterns, about your thoughts on different "colours" of different horns, not to mention mpc:s - contributing or the reverse to differences between cornets and trumpets (flugels to me are different animals).
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure why I sound like that. I can hear a difference on the three but the trumpet and cornet were both played on a cornet mouthpiece so they will sound quite similar.

The sound I expect to get from the cornet is slightly resistive with the sound blooming as it gets louder. Hard to describe. I play with vibrato too, based on classical singing techniques.

I practice officially 30 minutes every day, but in reality I do a bit more than that. I have a routine of exercises and studies to keep my playing techniques working properly. I go through phases of mainly playing cornet or mainly playing trumpet. I also play a lot of rotary trumpet which is more similar to cornet in feel.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its too bad there is no easy way to get a bore profile, but my impression of the early Besson trumpets (and thus into the modern trumpet) is they were pretty much copies of their early "Française" cornets with the valve cluster moved and the receiver setup changed (and, a different mouthpiece of course).

The Besson trumpet design did shift a bit, in fact the oldest Besson trumpet known (see Josh's page, http://www.jlandressbrass.com/restorations.html) has a conical tuning slide which is similar to cornets of that era.

I have a Besson "Concertiste" cornet from around the period of the above trumpet as well as the earlier "Française" model. (You can spot the Française by the wrap, its on the other side of the valve cluster.) The Concertiste has a wider bell, the sound ideal of a Cornet had shifted between these two models. Now the funny thing is my Française sounds a LOT like a trumpet, its bell profile looks pretty much the same as well if you eyeball it. So my theory has been someone at Besson in the 1890s decided to make a Bb trumpet following the German trend for Bb trumpets, took a bore profile from one of the old Française cornets to copy since they had a bit more projection than the more recent Concertiste cornets they were making, changed the wrap etc, and the rest is history. Robb in his article mentions some of this about the bells but not the Française vs Concertiste difference.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supposedly the tubing in trumpets was 2/3 straight, 1/3 conical (flared); cornets 1/3 straight, 2/3 conical; and, flugelhorns all conical (I read this in Tarr's text, I believe, but do not have it handy). The taper reduces upper harmonics and makes a more mellow sound. In practice, tapers are all over the map, but if you look at the taper in the tube from first valve to bell and bell flare itself the difference among a trumpet, cornet, and flugelhorn is usually obvious. A larger bell helps, natch, since you can taper more to the larger end opening.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I now the biggest difference between the two instruments is that the cornet has V shaped tubing from the beginning of the lead pipe until the end of the bell, this makes the cornets sounds sweeter and more melow against the strong and powerful trumpet sound for sure the shape is a difference but remember some older cornets like Olds Mentez or some older Conns.

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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Robbs main reason for writing the article above was to debunk the idea of the conical bore being the factor -- the table attached to the article, http://www.robbstewart.com/Essays/Trumpet_Schmumpet_abridged.htm, shows the % conical is not very different in trumpets vs cornets.

Don, I agree that its valves to bell taper that is the primary definer of trumpet vs cornet sound, that plus the mouthpiece tradition. There are other areas of the bore that have minor differences that you can hear, but its not going change opinion on whether its a cornet or a trumpet you think you are playing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A "cornetty" cornet will have about 2/3 of the non-valve slide tubing before the valve block. That tubing (leadpipe and tuning slide) begins its taper smaller at the mouthpiece end and tapers through the tuning slide, so there's more taper involved than on a standard trumpet. The remaining 1/3 of the tubing, the bell, is shorter than a trumpet bell and should have a little fatter profile, too.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
I am not sure why I sound like that. I can hear a difference on the three but the trumpet and cornet were both played on a cornet mouthpiece so they will sound quite similar.

Hi GordonH

To my ears, and through my speakers, you sound most similar on cornet and flugel (although I can hear a difference), and trumpet stands out to me as the one of the three which sounds most different to the other two.

Take Care

Lou


The sound I expect to get from the cornet is slightly resistive with the sound blooming as it gets louder. Hard to describe. I play with vibrato too, based on classical singing techniques.

I practice officially 30 minutes every day, but in reality I do a bit more than that. I have a routine of exercises and studies to keep my playing techniques working properly. I go through phases of mainly playing cornet or mainly playing trumpet. I also play a lot of rotary trumpet which is more similar to cornet in feel.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I used to have my Uncle's cornet until his grandchildren, my cousins, showed an interest in playing brass so I shipped it to them, and since I used to have over the same time period my Dad's trumpet until it got stolen from me in college, in high school in 1979 I wrote my senior composition class comparison/contrast essay on trumpet/cornet (As we were all taught as our first lesson in composition: write about what you know).

Of course, the essay is probably long gone in the many moves since high school, but as I remember, I covered three topics:

1) basic construction similarities and differences;
2) physicality of holding the instrument; and
3) tonality, contrasting the more conical nature of the cornet with the more cylindrical nature of the trumpet.

Both horns were King horns: Silvertone cornet and Super 20 trumpet, and so had the same bore through the block and the same bell taper, which made for an interesting analysis.

Most of everything I wrote about has been covered above. What I have to add is the subjective conclusion: for me, at that time, the cornet felt closer, intimate, and more lyrical, while the trumpet was, of course, more projecting, definied, and outwards. I played both instruments with similar cup mouthpieces: Bach 3C for the trumpet and my Uncle's antique Blessing 13 (similar to a 10 1/2 C, so roughly the same cup geometry in spite of the slightly smaller rim diameter) for the cornet.

Granted, with the right instrument, mouthpiece, and player, the subjective aspects can be totally different and it is possible to have a cornet with a tight throat bell, shallow cup mouthpiece, and tight backbore to be brighter than a trumpet with a large throat bell, deep cup mouthpiece, and open backbore.

But that's what it was all about for me at the time. Oh, BTW - I got an "A" on the paper, since my teacher, who also taught college composition, was also a brass player, and understood my context. That "A" helped me maintain straight "A's" in high school, which, of course, led to significant scholarships in college, both academically and a small stipend from the music department.
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