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Majorgab
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Mouthpiece variation Reply with quote

I'm wondering how much variation in rim and cup depth other players have success with. I have a Bach 3B for trumpet and a 5V for my cornet. I like the tone on cornet but a bit of a struggle to play high. Should I opt for another 3B cornet model?
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Arjuna
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece variation Reply with quote

Bach 3B cornet.


Majorgab wrote:
I'm wondering how much variation in rim and cup depth other players have success with. I have a Bach 3B for trumpet and a 5V for my cornet. I like the tone on cornet but a bit of a struggle to play high. Should I opt for another 3B cornet model?
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're struggling to play high, it's probably not the mouthpiece.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
If you're struggling to play high, it's probably not the mouthpiece.


In general, I'd very much agree with the above.

But... The Bach 5V has one of the thinnest and least comfortable rims I've ever seen. It's not a great model fullstop IMHO, and although a switch shouldn't be expected to give magic results it's very much worth getting a better mouthpiece.


That said... some questions ought to be asked:
1) What kind of cornet is it? (the BBB type cornets tend to like different kinds of mouthpieces than the "american" or "long" cornets)
2) What is the specific problem - is it actual range, endurance when playing high? Or something else?
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece variation Reply with quote

Majorgab wrote:
I'm wondering how much variation in rim and cup depth other players have success with. I have a Bach 3B for trumpet and a 5V for my cornet. I like the tone on cornet but a bit of a struggle to play high. Should I opt for another 3B cornet model?


Hi

The Bach 5V is unusually deep for a Bach cornet mouthpiece and a lot deeper than your trumpet Bach 3B (which I'm not saying is a bad thing, since it is pretty common-place to use a deeper cup on cornet to achieve a more characteristic cornet sound), which may be one of the reasons for you finding the upper register harder on cornet. At least it looks that way on the Kanstul Modular Mouthpiece Comparator, I haven't personally seen one:

http://www.kanstul.net/MPcompare/MouthpieceComparator.html

I used to own a Bach 5MV, which I found to have the most horrible rim I've ever come across, narrow and sharp. I'm not over fussy with rim contours, but I couldn't stand this one. Comparing the rims of the 5V and 5MV on the comparator, there appear to be quite a few similarities. Strangely the Bach 5MV was in a selection of mouthpieces I lent to a Brass Band colleague to try, and surprisingly it was his favourite of the bunch, and he bought it from me and is still playing it. Goes to show that we are all different.

I personally like the Bach 3B on cornet. Another 3 diameter mouthpiece I like on cornet is the Curry 3TC. Personally I'm not keen on the popular Curry 3BBC.

I very much agree with TKSop, that British Brass Band-style short model cornets, often work better with different mouthpieces than American/Long model cornets. Personally I find the Bach 3B to work well on a British Brass Band-style cornet, but not a standard Bach C cup or shallower.

All the best

Lou
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Majorgab
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I play a Bach Strad 184G cornet (ML)

I originally used a Bach 3C and could play (easily) to D or E flat. However it just sounds like a trumpet to me. I used Wick 4 and 4B for years but hate the feel, so I thought a Bach 5V would be a middle ground pick. Sound is lovely and more focused than the Wick but getting above high B flat is a struggle. And a lot more back pressure. So great on back row, not so much in the front row.

I'm really interested in the Curry mouthpieces (I also posted about this in the cornets forum), however specs imply much wider rims than the Bach series.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Majorgab wrote:
OK I play a Bach Strad 184G cornet (ML)

Hi Majorgab

Thanks very much for the clarification. A Bach cornet mouthpiece should ideally play fine with a Bach 184ML.


I originally used a Bach 3C and could play (easily) to D or E flat. However it just sounds like a trumpet to me.

I have a Bach 184ML and play it with a Bach 3C. It does admittedly sound very similar to my Bach 37 trumpet/Bach 3C combination.

I used Wick 4 and 4B for years but hate the feel, so I thought a Bach 5V would be a middle ground pick. Sound is lovely and more focused than the Wick but getting above high B flat is a struggle. And a lot more back pressure. So great on back row, not so much in the front row.

I understand, thanks.

I'm really interested in the Curry mouthpieces (I also posted about this in the cornets forum), however specs imply much wider rims than the Bach series.

No, I really don't think this is the case. Bach mouthpieces are generally thought to be larger than specified, and in my experience, Curry sizes are pretty much like their Bach equivalents, depending on your individual Bach mouthpieces, since the sizing of Bach mouthpieces tends to vary.

I find a Curry 3. cornet mouthpiece to be similar in cup diameter to my Bach 3Cs. Personally I'd recommend trying the 3TC and 3BBC. The 3DC is a nice mouthpiece, but probably not deep enough for what you are looking for.

Take Care

Lou

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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Majorgab wrote:
OK I play a Bach Strad 184G cornet (ML)

I originally used a Bach 3C and could play (easily) to D or E flat. However it just sounds like a trumpet to me. I used Wick 4 and 4B for years but hate the feel, so I thought a Bach 5V would be a middle ground pick. Sound is lovely and more focused than the Wick but getting above high B flat is a struggle. And a lot more back pressure. So great on back row, not so much in the front row.

I'm really interested in the Curry mouthpieces (I also posted about this in the cornets forum), however specs imply much wider rims than the Bach series.


Ah, Lou will be in a better position to comment on what does (and doesn't) work well with a 184 than I would be...

Before addressing the Curry models specifically, bear in mind that the published specs for Bach mouthpieces are utterly useless when it comes to comparing against most modern makers (including Curry).

If you like your rims to be in the Bach 3C/3B sort of ballpark, a Curry 3 is going to approximately correct in terms of diameter - a bit more cushioned in feel, but close enough in ID.
The Curry BBC would fall somewhere between the Wick 4 and 4B in terms of cup depth and tone, though personally I find it easier to play than either (and a heck of a lot more comfortable).

For the quality, Curry pieces are really pretty damned cheap - if you want a high quality brass-band suitable piece, the 3BBC is probably the one you want (IMHO).
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't put any stock into using the same model number on cornet as you do on trumpet. The cup of the pieces aren't the same nor is the requirement. Bach 3B might be good, might not.

Regarding rim variation, my only perspective is that I can use a small vintage Bach 3C rim on the Bb and a Yamaha 11B4 on the picc with good results. To me, these are similar shaped rims just different sizes. In your case I suspect size isn't the problem, it's the difference in rim shape. Personally, I can't manage any of the Bach 5 pieces I've played, at least not for long. They feel too sharp.

I'm a 3C player and I currently use a cornet shank Yamaha 11B4 on picc and I have used the 14B4 in the past. Both are a comfortable and easy transition though I don't know if the Yamaha pieces are considered a good choice for BBB type playing. The only other cornet piece I played and liked was a GR piece but I don't recall the model number.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll second Lou's recommendation to try a Curry 3TC. I've played Curry TC mpcs with my cornet, and I think they work well. I've also tried the BBC, and for me, it offered a slightly deeper timbre but was a bit more difficult to play, especially in the upper register, so I went with the TC. I don't play in a BBB, so the difference wasn't worth it--if I did, I'd use a BBC and deal with it.

There are many fans of the Curry DC cup, which is similar to the TC. The DC is slightly more bowl-shaped, while the TC is slightly more V-shaped, but it's a very subtle difference. I went with the TC because I like to lean more toward V-shaped cups when I have an option.
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KerryParker
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played on a 5V for a while and initially liked the sound...but after a while it became clear that it was a one trick pony...It could sound mellow and smooth but the color palette was SOOO limited. a Bowl shaped cup is definitely what you want
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Majorgab
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curry it is then! Thanks for all the great feedback.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Majorgab wrote:
OK I play a Bach Strad 184G cornet (ML)

I originally used a Bach 3C and could play (easily) to D or E flat. However it just sounds like a trumpet to me. I used Wick 4 and 4B for years but hate the feel, so I thought a Bach 5V would be a middle ground pick. Sound is lovely and more focused than the Wick but getting above high B flat is a struggle. And a lot more back pressure. So great on back row, not so much in the front row.

I'm really interested in the Curry mouthpieces (I also posted about this in the cornets forum), however specs imply much wider rims than the Bach series.


Ah, Lou will be in a better position to comment on what does (and doesn't) work well with a 184 than I would be...

Thanks, Tom. To the OP, what Tom means is that I have owned a Bach 184ML cornet since 1995, and it was my main instrument until 3 years ago, so know it very well. I will however clarify now that I am only an enthusiastic amateur player at the level of Principal/Solo Cornet of local non contesting brass bands, and will warn anyone reading lol, that I have strong opinions regarding the Bach 184ML, which are just that, combined with my own personal experience of playing the Bach 184ML for many years in lots of different settings. My personal experience therefore based on how I play and what suits me.

I also haven't done any mouthpiece experimentation on my Bach 184ML for quite a few years.

I bought it originally to match the set owned by my previous brass band. I played it in the band for eighteen years, my last eight years on Principal cornet. I used a Bach 7C for my first 10 years in the band, and a Bach 3C for the last eight. But, and this is the important part in my opinion, the whole cornet section were on Bach 184MLs with predominantly Bach C cups. We were not a very traditional brass band, playing lots of show tunes, pop tunes and even big band repertoire, owing to the founder of the band and band master until his death at 91 a couple of years ago, being a former dance band player, so were not worried about having a British Brass Band cornet tone, just achieving a good blend as a section.

During my time with the band, I often depped with more traditional British brass bands, and tried to find a set-up which would give me more of a British Brass Band cornet sound.

Unusually for a fair number of short model cornets, the Bach 184ML has a leadpipe/mouthpiece receiver arrangement which gives an actual mouthpiece gap.

Although other players seem to get good results with a Denis Wick cornet mouthpiece on a Bach cornet, I don't personally feel that they gap optimally, and that Bach or Curry mouthpieces are a better choice on the Bach 184ML.

Also, others may disagree, but irrespective of its overall brightness, I personally feel that the Bach 184ML (at least the yellow brass bell model, which I own) has more of a trumpet-style tone than brass band cornets such as the Sovereign and Yamaha Xeno. I don't mean that it is brighter, more that in my opinion it has more core, and a narrower sound profile of more of a trumpet nature. Maybe owing to the sound profile or something else, I feel that articulations sound different on the Bach 184ML to on the Sovereign/Xeno. To my ears they sound cleaner and more definite, which I personally like, but which I found to stand out and not blend so well, when I changed to a more traditional brass band with a section of Sovereigns. I personally found that I had to use a much softer tonguing action to stop my articulations and narrower sound profile sounding like someone playing a trumpet in a section of cornets. Admittedly this was with my 3C, but my sound was already no brighter than anyone else's, and any attempts to change my sound by using a deeper cup, resulted in me darkening my sound in a flugel direction rather than a brass band cornet direction. I liken this to using a Curry TF cup on trumpet. It becomes more flugel like not more brass band cornet like. Others may disagree, but the reason for this in my opinion, is that the Bach 184ML (at least the yellow brass bell version) sounds pretty much like a Bach 37 trumpet, and darkens and brightens with a mouthpiece change, in much the same way as a trumpet. Although I haven't actually tried it, I believe that you could use a lead trumpet-style mouthpiece on the Bach 184ML and it would just brighten like a trumpet, rather than becoming harsh, as I imagine would be the case with brass band cornets such as the Sovereign.

If I play my Bach 184ML and Bach 37 trumpet on the same repertoire with the same sound concept, they sound much the same. My very experienced Jazz Saxophonist husband says that he can't tell the difference on a show tune, unless he is looking at me, and what sealed it for me, was listening to a recording of me playing a classical excerpt, and not remembering which I had used for the recording, couldn't decide whether it was trumpet or cornet.

It was this and the failure to achieve the brass band cornet sound in my head on the Bach 184ML, which lead to me considering other cornets. Even if I play it with a 3C, my Xeno doesn't sound like a trumpet.

Another issue with the Bach 184ML is resistance. In my opinion it plays great with a Bach C cup, and has only slightly more resistance than a Bach ML bore trumpet, probably owing to the tighter wrap of a cornet. This in my opinion is the true reason why the OP says that he has good range with a Bach 3C on the 184ML, but struggles in the upper register with a deeper cup.

After stubbornly trying to make a Bach 3C work on three Sovereigns, and I mean stubbornly, hence three different Sovereigns, I finally concluded that the Sovereign has more resistance and plays like a sock stuffed in it with a Bach 3C, whereas the Bach 3C plays well on the Bach 184ML.

I've tried Denis Wick no letter cups on my Bach 184ML and they play like a drainpipe with insufficient resistance, but I like them on a Sovereign. To me they also sound dull on the Bach 184ML, probably owing to the too open blow not allowing me sufficient breath support.

Basically to get to the point of my long rant, in my honest opinion and others may disagree, the Bach 184ML has too little resistance for me with a deep brass band cornet mouthpiece and sounds dull. It also has more of a trumpet-style sound that darkens in a flugel rather than brass band cornet direction.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that the OP should change cornet. I love my Bach 184ML and think that it is a great cornet, with a beautiful sound.

I'm suggesting that the OP looks for a mouthpiece which is a good compromise for the Bach 184ML. One that gives in more of a cornet-like sound, but is not so deep or open to blow that it makes the upper register unnecessarily difficult. I'd suggest accepting that this cornet (at least my yellow brass bell model) does not and will not in my opinion ever sound quite like a Sovereign or Xeno, even though it can blend with careful listening, and that using a mouthpiece that suits these cornets, will probably not be the best match for the playing characteristics/inherent sound of the Bach 184ML, or give an ideal gap.


Before addressing the Curry models specifically, bear in mind that the published specs for Bach mouthpieces are utterly useless when it comes to comparing against most modern makers (including Curry).

If you like your rims to be in the Bach 3C/3B sort of ballpark, a Curry 3 is going to approximately correct in terms of diameter - a bit more cushioned in feel, but close enough in ID.
The Curry BBC would fall somewhere between the Wick 4 and 4B in terms of cup depth and tone, though personally I find it easier to play than either (and a heck of a lot more comfortable).

For the quality, Curry pieces are really pretty damned cheap - if you want a high quality brass-band suitable piece, the 3BBC is probably the one you want (IMHO).

Since the OP doesn't want his Bach 184ML to sound like it does with a Bach 3C, I agree with the suggestion of the Curry 3BBC. Other suggestions worth trying in my opinion include the Curry 3DC, Curry 3TC, Bach 5A and Bach 3B.

Anyway, I'm very sorry for the long rant. Although I am pretty open minded generally, I have very definite opinions on at least the yellow brass bell version of the Bach 184 (ML rather than L, I haven't played the L), which I have decided to share. I strongly believe what I say to be true for at least how I play and sound on the Bach 184ML, but we are all different and the mileage of others may vary, and of course I'm no authority on the Bach 184ML, just one amateur player who has played one for a long time.

Hopefully my long rant will be of some help to the OP. If not, feel free to ignore me.

Take Care

Lou

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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Majorgab wrote:
OK I play a Bach Strad 184G cornet (ML)

I originally used a Bach 3C and could play (easily) to D or E flat. However it just sounds like a trumpet to me. I used Wick 4 and 4B for years but hate the feel, so I thought a Bach 5V would be a middle ground pick. Sound is lovely and more focused than the Wick but getting above high B flat is a struggle. And a lot more back pressure. So great on back row, not so much in the front row.

I'm really interested in the Curry mouthpieces (I also posted about this in the cornets forum), however specs imply much wider rims than the Bach series.



Hi again - not being hired by the Wick Company - still I would like to propose my own solution to this hurdle - Wick Ultras!!
Personally 7C:s but there is a full range. Provides me and my Getzen Custom Series cornet/King super 20 trumpet with good brassband sound resp. concertband (and lower bigband parts)sound. But that's just me..
might be tricky to get at but thomann.de has a substantial stock.
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Majorgab
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to try a Bach 3A and see about ordering the Curry. Thanks for all your feedback!
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Majorgab wrote:
I'm going to try a Bach 3A and see about ordering the Curry. Thanks for all your feedback!


Hi Majorgab

From memory, Bach don't make a 3A only a 5A. The rim of the Bach 5A is different to that of the 5C, and in my opinion, the cup diameter/rim of the 5A seem a reasonable switch to me from a Bach 3C.

Take Care

Lou
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh. So tired of people who think Bach is the answer. I would advise only Curry or Wick. I can find everything I need for any situation with these two makers. Why be tied to Bach?
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played a large bore Bach 184G cornet in a brass band for many years. I'm a 3C player on trumpet, and I used both a Wick 4B and 4 for much of the time. Looking for something that took a bit less work, I bought a Curry3BBC. mouthpiece and it was great. The tone is not quite as warm and fuzzy as with the Wicks, but it's still quite acceptable for the brass band I played in. The rim is very forgiving and the upper register is less work.
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