Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:49 am Post subject:
I found in the past that the 'Roll In' exercises from The Balanced Embouchure book resulted in me playing with a more forward jaw - this was an unconscious byproduct, not an intended change. It didn't really alter my playing in a positive or negative way.
The direct approach to adjusting your habits would only require that you watch your movements like a hawk and stop playing as soon as you're doing the thing you don't want. 9 times out of 10 that'll result in over thinking and some kind of paralysis by analysis.
Other ideas worth investigating include trying an MF-style mouthpiece that allow you lips to collapse in a way that the aperture doesn't seal off when you reach the upper end of your range; and being aware of what Doc Reinhardt called "balancing pressure". That is pushing the lips forward towards the mouthpiece as you ascend. I know that you didn't mention mouthpiece pressure at all but again it can help to prevent the aperture from closing off at the upper end of your range. _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
I'm not sure if the respondents so for get what the O/P has stated. Frankly I don't see much wrong with his playing (assuming its a guy).
He has a G over high C. Not bad! Back in college I was the only one of the trumpet majors from freshman to senior and grad school who had that note. So he's hardly deficient in range. At least in comparison to his peers.
Basically I don't see any major issue. At all. Nothing that some time, a little analysis and perhaps some mouthpiece experimentation can clear up.
Look at it this way,
He's got the high G. Perhaps only 2% of trumpet players even have this note. With a G you can play virtually all lead trumpet parts of significance. I just came off a two year stint playing lead in a pretty good big band. During that time the only chart I saw with a critical note above the G was in Maynard's "Blue Birdland". And in this band there wasn't much if any competition threatening my position.
While we had a sub who could squeal a bit higher than me but his intonation was poor. Also he went sharp and couldn't correct it. That and he was inconsistent.
Basically the O/P has only indicated that he's just going through the ordinary process of learning high notes and playing lead. The two are different. There are trumpet players with high notes but can't play lead well. Instead of striving to squeal higher and higher they ought to concentrate on making their existing register more solid and musical.
And all of this can be done on a naturally receded jaw chop setting. Snooky was one of these. Pounding the lead book under Doc's leadership for years and years. Snooky had a powerful high B flat and probably more above. What a waste it would have been for him to have attempted a senseless conversion to a forward jaw chop set up.
When reading these posts almost half the time I see no problem. Much of them we read that someone is trying to get his lips, cheeks or whatever to match some preconceived ideal. The right question isn't,
"Why can't I make my chops look like the perfect ideal"
Instead it should only be concerned about the musicality of the player. This is where I find myself in total agreement with Donald Reinhardt. Doc Reinhart had to deal with many students who were failed conversions to the forward jaw embouchure. Ask Mr Hollywood here about this. If he has time. He went to the old man begging him to convert him to forward jaw but he wouldn't do it.
"You can't fight mother nature". Were Reinhardt's words.
And I have personally witnessed a few somewhat successful forward jaw conversions. Yet in both of those cases each trumpet player never got a truly big sound. You could use them in s big band but as soon as they got above high C they needed a microphone to cut through. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Ghee whiz, the OP, like all trumpet players, is just trying to experiment with something new, and try to improve his playing, and figure out what works with his chops.
Maybe his dental structure and playing habits are such that this might be a big improvement, maybe not.
My chops are always changing. Day to day I learn new things, just based on my own playing and experimentation. Mouthpiece placement, how and where to relax, figuring out what my tongue is doing, and what might work better., the best way to use my corners, breathing, and on and on.
Any time I play with a new trumpet player, I ask what he's doing, what is successful, I watch the way he plays, and try to be inquisitive and always have an open mind.
Some of us our purists, and say "just play naturally and don't over analyze " usually those guys are the same with hardware "just play a 3C and don't worry about trying different things, and gap is voodoo, and and extra weighted sleeves and caps are a waste of time". Then some of us are more invested in experimenting, try different mouthpieces, leadpipes, backbore, experiment more with different chop methods, and take a more neurotic approach. Neither is right or wrong.
What might work for you or some professional may not work for somebody else. There is, as I've learned, no hard and fast science to trumpet playing.
Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 11 Location: United States
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:01 pm Post subject: Preventing the receded jaw?
Winghorn-
Thank you for your suggestion regarding lip bends. Others have mentioned that lip bends can improve resonance also. I will start doing more lip bends! Thanks!
Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 11 Location: United States
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:24 pm Post subject: Preventing the receded jaw?
Dear lionel and trumpet.sanity-
You both make very valid points. Lionel made some great points (well taken) regarding the difference between learning the feel for the upper register, and actually playing lead on a big band. And also about Snooky Young. I love Snooky's style! I actually met Snooky twice. What a nice and humble man!
Yes, I am experimenting. I can read, play lead, and I can also swing with a good sound. I'm just trying to find ways to allow me to last longer and not work so hard. All of the responses on Trumpet Herald have been wonderful and very helpful!
I must be on the right track in one regard. A few months ago I backed up Arturo Sandoval. He came to Stockton, California and I was a sub playing the lead book for the Stockton Symphony Orchestra. Arturo gave me the "thumbs up" on his charts!
Chris LaBarbara (Mr. Hollywood) with Brian MacDonald of the Airmen of Note. Chris is a Reinhardt Student and appears to play with an overbite like Tony Kadleck (very pronounced) and Mike Bogart (also very pronounced). All can easily play Double C's. I believe that they all pivot slightly and their jaws recede slightly as they ascend. This is exactly how I play and with good musical tone etc. This natural physiological set-up hasn't stopped me from playing pedal C's to Double C's. Unless I am mistaken, this is exactly what the Maggio System For Brass teaches. If you can play a strong G above high C and your tone is good etc. ... I would say it is probably learning incredibly small nuances that remain between each note as you ascend.
After I play legit studies for an hour or so (Adam Routine - 5 days per week) ... I then switch to my smaller mouthpiece and finish with a series of range exercises that include ascending lip trills and octave glissandos using the bugle valve combinations of 123 (F sharp), 13, 23, 12, 1, 2 and 13 (for the double C) etc.
Hope this is helpful _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Preventing the receded jaw?
Your mouth and teeth structure are nature, let nature decide.
Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing and Caruso's 6 note exercise allow for a natural embouchure to develop.
Think the sound "O" on the inhalation.
Use the "Hoo" sound for the middle register, the "Haa" sound for the lower register and the "Hee" sound for the upper register.
Practice slowly and softly.
Observe dynamics when practicing and performing.
Practice the Irons book 6 exercises per practice session resting 2 minutes between exercises.
Rest as much as you play.
Practice in 20-30 minute sessions.
Rest 1 hour between practice sessions.
Find your ideal mouthpiece and trumpet.
FAT-A-OVER-C wrote:
I welcome all ideas and advice. So here's what happens with me. As I ascend out of the staff, my lower jaw recedes. My bottom lip curls up and over the bottom teeth. Now the bottom lip is behind the upper lip. The air stream is going down toward the bottom of the rim. My lips are out of alignment, the back of my tongue goes up (maybe too far?), and my throat closes down a little.
I can go up to a G over high C with some power and resonance, but I don't last very long. The G# and A are tiny little squeaks. I know for sure that I'm working too hard, and there is a better way. Is it possible to train myself to get my jaw a little further out? Is this counter-productive? I've been playing this way for a very long time. HELP!
"You can't fight mother nature". Were Reinhardt's words.
Thanks for the kind words Arjuna.
Dang me! I just accidentally deleted a flippin half hour long post! Grr!! Serves me right for being so long winded. I do realize that my posts are kinda wordy and long. Some may feel confused from them. So perhaps its better that my work was deleted. Gives me a chance to be more succinct. And if anyone wants what I feel is a complete analysis? They can always pm me.
So to be at least a bit more brieg allow me to sum up why the forward jaw trumpet player finds it easier to blow high notes. That and how the naturally receded jaw chop setting can fine tune his mechanics. So that he too can play the complete range of the instrument. My words are not theoretical. I have proven them at least to my own satisfaction.
As due to some conclusions I came to a year and a half ago I not only.broke through my high G cut-off point but am now absolutely nailing some E's over double C. That and my range is still increasing. Even after long spell of inactivity, iow "not practicing". To outline my conclusions briefly (and again, if anyone is interested in detailed explanation? Please feel free to pm me)
For want of brevity here are the characteristics of the forward jaw embouchure which are of use to the trumpet player. The other details are interesting but hard to explain. That and they would serve to usually just confuse. And confusion produces lack of confidence. None of us needs that.
Forward jaw embouchure: for various reasons too detailed to get into the forward jaw trumpet player's physiology allows him to make a larger mouthpiece work like a shallower one. So long as his musculature does not fight his output range will be easy for him. That said? He may have trouble getting a truly big sound. Also his physiology is definitely in the minority. Receded jaw players who try to convert to his method usually can't pull it off.
Receded jaw trumpet players: tend to play with more resonsant tones but often lack some of the high end more typical to their forward jaw peers. Receded jaw settings include the majority because their upper lip's vibrating surface is more inside tbe inner portion of the upper lip. These more resonant players can make a shallow mouthpiece work like a bigger one. Albeit perhaps with some modifications such as opening up the throat and back bore of the mouthpiece.
The shallower mouthpiece can be the Great Equalizer. Allowing the receded jaw player to soar as high or nearly as high as the forward jaw player.
I personally have followed that last suggestion to get an E over Double C and still gaining!!! Maybe by next Spring my range will get up to G below triple C or higher. All on the receded jaw setting. My range progress seems to continue going higher and higher WHETHER OR NOT I PRACTICE at all8!. In my mind the results are irrefuteable.
I took my receded jaw embouchure which conventional wisdom said was "limited to high G only" and broke the ceiling. Better late than never. As it took over 50 years of research and daily practice. Yet in the end it was a simple process of selecting the correct equipment. Fortunately I always had the right mechanics. Lots of others don't. As for me?
I really just needed a better mouthpiece. Simple as that. Kinda like the solution was hiding in plain sight.8 _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
It is never too late to unlock your potential.
There is something more beautiful about the late bloomer than the prodigy.
It means more to the late bloomer.
The correct mouthpiece and trumpet are essential.
Lionel wrote:
Arjuna wrote:
+1
Lionel wrote:
"You can't fight mother nature". Were Reinhardt's words.
I took my receded jaw embouchure which conventional wisdom said was "limited to high G only" and broke the ceiling. Better late than never. As it took over 50 years of research and daily practice. Yet in the end it was a simple process of selecting the correct equipment. Fortunately I always had the right mechanics. Lots of others don't. As for me?
I really just needed a better mouthpiece. Simple as that. Kinda like the solution was hiding in plain sight.8
Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 11 Location: United States
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject:
Gentlemen, thank you so much for your suggestions and expertise (Arjuna, Trumpetplanet, Trumpet.sanity, Lionel, Russell, etc.)
I will experiment with these ideas. I am leaning toward the direction of what my natural physical characteristics are (recede while ascending). It is obvious that I need to make minor adjustments, pay attention to results, and stay diligent.
Russell- thank you for the clip of Mr. Hollywood. Ironically, I lived in and around Hollywood Florida in the late 70's & early 80's. Chris is a friend of mine and I've been knocked out by his playing even back then. I will get back in touch with him. He is a wealth of knowledge.
Gentlemen, thank you so much for your suggestions and expertise (Arjuna, Trumpetplanet, Trumpet.sanity, Lionel, Russell, etc.)
I will experiment with these ideas. I am leaning toward the direction of what my natural physical characteristics are (recede while ascending). It is obvious that I need to make minor adjustments, pay attention to results, and stay diligent.
Russell- thank you for the clip of Mr. Hollywood. Ironically, I lived in and around Hollywood Florida in the late 70's & early 80's. Chris is a friend of mine and I've been knocked out by his playing even back then. I will get back in touch with him. He is a wealth of knowledge.
FAT-A-OVER-C
You can't get much better advice than that of Chris LaBarbera. He doesnt advertize like some of the systems here do. Yet his remarks regarding the various approaches to range and fundamentals are easily as illuminating as those particular systems themselves. That and he has some (private) thoughts which are humorous regarding those who only think their method is the holy grail of high notes.
Instead Chris truly is the real deal. With top notch jazz improv skills and bandstand capable double C's. That's the significant feature. Because there exist plenty of guys on Youtube posting high notes and systems. Yet very few of them are capable of playing something you would want to hear.
If you get to see Chris again, or take a lesson with him feel free to post what went on. Best, Lionel _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:52 pm Post subject:
FAT-A-OVER-C wrote:
I am leaning toward the direction of what my natural physical characteristics are (recede while ascending). It is obvious that I need to make minor adjustments, pay attention to results, and stay diligent.
Russell- thank you for the clip of Mr. Hollywood. Ironically, I lived in and around Hollywood Florida in the late 70's & early 80's. Chris is a friend of mine and I've been knocked out by his playing even back then. I will get back in touch with him.
Take a lesson with Chris! He does Skype lessons. Please do let us know what he says, but I can tell you what Dave Sheetz told me during lessons, and Dave is one of the few people living who took more lessons from Doc than Chris did. Dave told me he spent years in intense pain while he strengthened his jaw enough to make it not merely protrude as he ascended, but to hold it far enough forward as he played in the upper register. He told me this to encourage me to engage that process, it didn't take that long to develop the necessary strength, and it drastically improved my playing.
I won't say if you don't learn to incorporate this aspect into your playing that your range will never improve, but I am curious if Chris might.
Buying the Encyclopedia is the best trumpet investment I ever made ...
I am leaning toward the direction of what my natural physical characteristics are (recede while ascending). It is obvious that I need to make minor adjustments, pay attention to results, and stay diligent.
Russell- thank you for the clip of Mr. Hollywood. Ironically, I lived in and around Hollywood Florida in the late 70's & early 80's. Chris is a friend of mine and I've been knocked out by his playing even back then. I will get back in touch with him.
Take a lesson with Chris! He does Skype lessons. Please do let us know what he says, but I can tell you what Dave Sheetz told me during lessons, and Dave is one of the few people living who took more lessons from Doc than Chris did. Dave told me he spent years in intense pain while he strengthened his jaw enough to make it not merely protrude as he ascended, but to hold it far enough forward as he played in the upper register. He told me this to encourage me to engage that process, it didn't take that long to develop the necessary strength, and it drastically improved my playing.
I won't say if you don't learn to incorporate this aspect into your playing that your range will never improve, but I am curious if Chris might.
Buying the Encyclopedia is the best trumpet investment I ever made ...
Raze,
There is no doubt but that the forward jaw trumpet player can have a huge advantage over his receded jaw peers. There is however a serious "but" to this though. Or an "if" that is. It is,
"If" you can get the forward jaw embouchure working well and/or improving rapidly. Because there are hundreds at least of failed conversions to the forward jaw system. The scrap heap of failed conversions filled with many trumpet players.
Now having said that??
I myself havent quite been able to refrain from practicing playing on the forward jaw. Even though my natural fit is receded and I still have better useable range than most trumpet players. I just cant quite bring myself to leave forward jaw alone. Lol.
Like just this past weekend I pulled it out of mothballs. I hadnt screwed around with the forward jaw in at least a year. But after warming up?
Out popped these INCREDIBLE B Flats below double C! I liked them as much as Nicholson's. Yeah really! Maybe I'll record them later. I still wouldnt use that system on a gig but my lord HUGE & EASY double C's with a relatively easy perfect fifth above. Previously the highest I had ever gotten on receded jaw chops was a decent piece of an E above double C. But I couldnt "live" there.
So some experimentation is fun and interesting. It has taught me much about the learning process. How we can refine our muscle usage even without practicing at times. The subconcious mind can assimiliate previous practicing even when we are not playing much.
That last sentence kinda explains the terrific improvement I had made on forward jaw. Even though I had not been playing it. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:56 pm Post subject:
Lionel wrote:
There is no doubt but that the forward jaw trumpet player can have a huge advantage over his receded jaw peers.
We need to clarify something for the OP:
a "forward jaw player" specifically means someone who's teeth of the lower jaw protrude in front of the teeth of the upper jaw. That is NOT what I'm talking about!!
The OP specifically stated that as he ascends, his lower jaw recedes even more. What I'm talking about is preventing that, and likely reversing that direction of motion such that the teeth of the lower jaw come into closer alignment with the teeth of the upper jaw as he ascends.
That does NOT mean ever arriving at a "forward jaw position." It does include strengthening the jaw, and coordinating the strength and position of the tongue to help stabilize the whole thing.
Also please note that I'm not at all pretending to know if this would be best for the OP, or even help him. We surely can;t know anything like that, not having heard or seen him play. Instead I'm saying Chris LaBarbera is an excellent person for him to take a Skype lesson from, to get all this sorted. And that I'm curious to learn what Chris has to say about this, if the OP ever gets that far ...
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