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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Trumpet/ Other custom/unique horns


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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a Monette which I really like. If I were to go back in time to high school, knowing what I do now, I would get a Bach 37 ML bore. A trumpet that works for everything, no matter what direction you go. Later when you know which way you will go or how you play, you can pick a horn specific to your needs.

I work a lot with a guy that plays a Wild Thing. He likes it and we never have a problem blending.
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Centennialsound
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:
I play a Monette which I really like. If I were to go back in time to high school, knowing what I do now, I would get a Bach 37 ML bore. A trumpet that works for everything, no matter what direction you go. Later when you know which way you will go or how you play, you can pick a horn specific to your needs.

I work a lot with a guy that plays a Wild Thing. He likes it and we never have a problem blending.


Well thx for the advice:)
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judging by the number of professional players in all idioms- classical, jazz, big band and solo work- who play Bach Strads, a Strad could be all the horn a young player will ever need. A Strad is one of the few horns that can do it all, and do it all well. Some of the horn brands recommended at times on this forum are played by few, if any, professional artists and seem to be popular mostly among amateur players.

I don't think advances in technology mean that newer products are automatically better. Especially when it comes to the tools of an artist. Stradivari violins, made 300 or so years ago, are still considered incomparable today by most world class performing artists, despite advances in acoustics and materials choice.

There are some wonderful horns being built today, and the Bach Strad remains among the best. Listen to the clip contained in the thread "Is this an old Strad" if you have any doubt about this.

Steve
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My friend has an older Wild Thing from when Flip was still in his prototype days. This horn has a slightly tighter bell flair, not quite as extreme as the current model.

Original gold plate, mint condition. Priced much lower than any horns mentioned in this thread. If you're interested send me a pm, and I'll get you the info.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
My friend has an older Wild Thing from when Flip was still in his prototype days. This horn has a slightly tighter bell flair, not quite as extreme as the current model.

Original gold plate, mint condition. Priced much lower than any horns mentioned in this thread. If you're interested send me a pm, and I'll get you the info.


I'll answer here for Flip, since this comes up periodically and his answer has always been the same:

The only Wild Thing prototype is a .460 bore trumpet called "Killer." Flip had sold it once, or maybe twice, but has since bought it back and intends to keep it off the market. The other "prototype" is actually a Wild Thing that was given a removable lead pipe setup, so that Flip could experiment with different designs. That horn is now in Michael Drapp's possession, though it is still owned by Flip.

Basically, if it doesn't have the Wild Thing bell, it's not a Wild Thing, prototype or anything else. Flip has developed many different instruments over the years, but the Wild Thing was born at a specific time out of a specific need caused by an accident which crushed the trumpet he had been using as a personal horn. He hand-picked the bell first and specified the rest of the design around that. So, no horn with a different bell has anything to do with the development of the Wild Thing.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
trumpet.sanity wrote:
My friend has an older Wild Thing from when Flip was still in his prototype days. This horn has a slightly tighter bell flair, not quite as extreme as the current model.

Original gold plate, mint condition. Priced much lower than any horns mentioned in this thread. If you're interested send me a pm, and I'll get you the info.


I'll answer here for Flip, since this comes up periodically and his answer has always been the same:

The only Wild Thing prototype is a .460 bore trumpet called "Killer." Flip had sold it once, or maybe twice, but has since bought it back and intends to keep it off the market. The other "prototype" is actually a Wild Thing that was given a removable lead pipe setup, so that Flip could experiment with different designs. That horn is now in Michael Drapp's possession, though it is still owned by Flip.

Basically, if it doesn't have the Wild Thing bell, it's not a Wild Thing, prototype or anything else. Flip has developed many different instruments over the years, but the Wild Thing was born at a specific time out of a specific need caused by an accident which crushed the trumpet he had been using as a personal horn. He hand-picked the bell first and specified the rest of the design around that. So, no horn with a different bell has anything to do with the development of the Wild Thing.


This is a Kanstul built trumpet, designed by Flip Oakes during his R&D days and early designs. It is a .470 bore. Fixed leadpipe, and not sure which Bell, but 5 inch bell, and the flair resembles a Martin maybe??

Early 80s is where I've been told the serial number is.

Does it have the magic and mysticism that TH members think their Wild Things have?? That I don't know. No fancy articles have been written about it.

But I'm sure it's a solid Kanstul trumpet, with Flip's influence. And the gold plate is immaculate and the horn looks brand new I'm sure will be a good horn for somebody at a very fair price.
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Centennialsound
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
trumpet.sanity wrote:
My friend has an older Wild Thing from when Flip was still in his prototype days. This horn has a slightly tighter bell flair, not quite as extreme as the current model.

Original gold plate, mint condition. Priced much lower than any horns mentioned in this thread. If you're interested send me a pm, and I'll get you the info.


I'll answer here for Flip, since this comes up periodically and his answer has always been the same:

The only Wild Thing prototype is a .460 bore trumpet called "Killer." Flip had sold it once, or maybe twice, but has since bought it back and intends to keep it off the market. The other "prototype" is actually a Wild Thing that was given a removable lead pipe setup, so that Flip could experiment with different designs. That horn is now in Michael Drapp's possession, though it is still owned by Flip.

Basically, if it doesn't have the Wild Thing bell, it's not a Wild Thing, prototype or anything else. Flip has developed many different instruments over the years, but the Wild Thing was born at a specific time out of a specific need caused by an accident which crushed the trumpet he had been using as a personal horn. He hand-picked the bell first and specified the rest of the design around that. So, no horn with a different bell has anything to do with the development of the Wild Thing.


Haha thank you for the clarification there Brian, I was slightly speculative myself. Good solid info. Thank you
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Centennialsound
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
trumpet.sanity wrote:
My friend has an older Wild Thing from when Flip was still in his prototype days. This horn has a slightly tighter bell flair, not quite as extreme as the current model.

Original gold plate, mint condition. Priced much lower than any horns mentioned in this thread. If you're interested send me a pm, and I'll get you the info.


I'll answer here for Flip, since this comes up periodically and his answer has always been the same:

The only Wild Thing prototype is a .460 bore trumpet called "Killer." Flip had sold it once, or maybe twice, but has since bought it back and intends to keep it off the market. The other "prototype" is actually a Wild Thing that was given a removable lead pipe setup, so that Flip could experiment with different designs. That horn is now in Michael Drapp's possession, though it is still owned by Flip.

Basically, if it doesn't have the Wild Thing bell, it's not a Wild Thing, prototype or anything else. Flip has developed many different instruments over the years, but the Wild Thing was born at a specific time out of a specific need caused by an accident which crushed the trumpet he had been using as a personal horn. He hand-picked the bell first and specified the rest of the design around that. So, no horn with a different bell has anything to do with the development of the Wild Thing.


This is a Kanstul built trumpet, designed by Flip Oakes during his R&D days and early designs. It is a .470 bore. Fixed leadpipe, and not sure which Bell, but 5 inch bell, and the flair resembles a Martin maybe??

Early 80s is where I've been told the serial number is.

Does it have the magic and mysticism that TH members think their Wild Things have?? That I don't know. No fancy articles have been written about it.

But I'm sure it's a solid Kanstul trumpet, with Flip's influence. And the gold plate is immaculate and the horn looks brand new I'm sure will be a good horn for somebody at a very fair price.


So have you played the horn yourself? How does it sound? What inscription is on the bell?

Thanks
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's understandably comforting to a player to hear a wider sound around their ears. It appears bigger to the player. But a spread sound also encourages a comparable spread in the chops which is a huge reason so many players never develop an upper register, especially one that's in tune. Also, it greatly encourages overblowing in an attempt regain power and core out front. Players in the section with 'normal' trumpets blow ever harder to hear themselves while the spread trumpet becomes more and more unbalanced. An especially good sound man with individual mics on each horn can help greatly. But for best chop development as well as greatly improved ensemble performance it's essential to avoid oversized bells, flares, and bores, as well as enlarged mouthpiece cups, throats and backbores. Anything/everything (including teachers) that encourages a spread in the sound adds to negative habits that are very difficult and extremely time consuming to turn around.
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
trumpet.sanity wrote:
My friend has an older Wild Thing from when Flip was still in his prototype days. This horn has a slightly tighter bell flair, not quite as extreme as the current model.

Original gold plate, mint condition. Priced much lower than any horns mentioned in this thread. If you're interested send me a pm, and I'll get you the info.


I'll answer here for Flip, since this comes up periodically and his answer has always been the same:

The only Wild Thing prototype is a .460 bore trumpet called "Killer." Flip had sold it once, or maybe twice, but has since bought it back and intends to keep it off the market. The other "prototype" is actually a Wild Thing that was given a removable lead pipe setup, so that Flip could experiment with different designs. That horn is now in Michael Drapp's possession, though it is still owned by Flip.

Basically, if it doesn't have the Wild Thing bell, it's not a Wild Thing, prototype or anything else. Flip has developed many different instruments over the years, but the Wild Thing was born at a specific time out of a specific need caused by an accident which crushed the trumpet he had been using as a personal horn. He hand-picked the bell first and specified the rest of the design around that. So, no horn with a different bell has anything to do with the development of the Wild Thing.

I can confirm Brian's assertion.

I've heard heard first-hand from Flip Oakes that there are no prototypes other than "Killer" as he describes. If there is a Kanstul-made trumpet on which Flip had a hand in designing, it had nothing whatsoever to do with the Wild Thing.

OTOH, if it's an early Wild Thing, only the trade-mark on the bell has changed (early bells are simply stamped "Flip Oakes Wild Thing"); later, the trademark was enhanced with the oak tree. But the design of the bell has NEVER changed.
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, Bach has many different models and bell options. Different flairs, shapes, bore sizes. Just like virtually every other brand of trumpet

Including Kanstul trumpets.

Flip Oakes currently has two model trumpets made for him, from what I can tell. He has had others in the past.

The horn I am talking about is not a modern Flip Oakes Wild Thing made by Kanstul, but an older horn, designed by Flip, made by Kanstul.

Is it a Wild Thing, or does it have Wild Thing stamped on the bell? No. Clearly it is a more traditional bell. No where near as wide a bell flair and throats as the modern version. The modern version is HUGE. It looks like the bells Kanstul puts on its marching corps style horns.

This older horn I'm talking about is an older version of a horn designed by Flip, made by Kanstul. To look at it the horn looks quite conventional and traditional.
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.kanstul.com/detail.php?pass_search=103.1000&pass_instrument=Marching%20Brass

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/brass-instruments/kanstul-103-series-marching-bb-trumpet

Here's a Wild Think link:
http://flipoakes.com/trumpets-cornets-flugelhorns/wild-thing-bb-trumpet/

Take a look at the bell on the Kanstul 103 Marching Trumpet vs the Wild Thing. It sure seems to resemble the current Wild Thing bell.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
http://www.kanstul.com/detail.php?pass_search=103.1000&pass_instrument=Marching%20Brass

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/brass-instruments/kanstul-103-series-marching-bb-trumpet

Here's a Wild Think link:
http://flipoakes.com/trumpets-cornets-flugelhorns/wild-thing-bb-trumpet/

Take a look at the bell on the Kanstul 103 Marching Trumpet vs the Wild Thing. It sure seems to resemble the current Wild Thing bell.


You are astute! Yes, the bell is made on the same Kanstul mandrel that Flip chose for the Wild Thing. But, that (and the bore) is where the similarities end. Flip spotted that mandrel while walking through the factory with Zig the day he spec'd out Killer. Zig's response was, "Well, that'll never work!" Some time later, after the success of the Wild Thing, Zig called him up and asked him to come to the factory. He showed him the new 103, so that Flip had a chance to see that Zig was not coopting the design of the Wild Thing. Flip was satisfied.

On another day, Zig told Flip that his Wild Thing instruments were the hardest to build of all the instruments Kanstul makes. There are reasons for that. Many unique features of Flip's designs can be spotted through careful observation. Some are more difficult to spot or are hidden. Even an actual Flip Oakes horn as delivered by the factory does not qualify as a Wild Thing, in Flip's eyes. Only after it is properly set up does it meet muster.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptguy wrote:
It's understandably comforting to a player to hear a wider sound around their ears. It appears bigger to the player. But a spread sound also encourages a comparable spread in the chops which is a huge reason so many players never develop an upper register, especially one that's in tune. Also, it greatly encourages overblowing in an attempt regain power and core out front. Players in the section with 'normal' trumpets blow ever harder to hear themselves while the spread trumpet becomes more and more unbalanced. An especially good sound man with individual mics on each horn can help greatly. But for best chop development as well as greatly improved ensemble performance it's essential to avoid oversized bells, flares, and bores, as well as enlarged mouthpiece cups, throats and backbores. Anything/everything (including teachers) that encourages a spread in the sound adds to negative habits that are very difficult and extremely time consuming to turn around.


I don't mean to come off as testy, but some of the conclusions you state are different than my personal experience. First off, I am referring to the years I spent playing a Benge 5X in High School and college. Many times I have read here on TH that the #5 Benge bell is in the same class as the #72 Bach, but it is really more like the #37 (yes, I studied them to find out), so it isn't a so called "large throat bell" like the Wild Thing or 72. To this day, that horn produced the strongest all-encompassing sound of any trumpet I have ever played or heard. It had a very dense core and the sound carried, quite literally, through walls. I can confidently say this, because I put that horn in the hands of several different players of various skill levels and in various venues and the result was always the same: a huge, penetrating, all-encompassing sound.

This meant that I learned to play efficiently with less effort than the players beside me, who often were playing the venerated Bach 37. I played in tune, because I had developed and ear for intonation through my years of singing in choir. I learned to listen to the ensemble as a whole, while also being able to dissect the individual players/singers and sections from the whole. So, I think the projection pattern of a bell and what a player does with it is not exactly determined by the size of the bell taper or flare.

In college, I gained performance range up to F an octave above the staff playing a Bach 1-1/2C mouthpiece (a convention I followed) , which was admittedly too large a rim for me. Later, when I started my comeback after 30 years, I learned to play on a #3 then #5 rim and with a "compression" embouchure, as is illustrated by Poper in his hand book and advocated by Pops McLaughlin in his online works. This allowed me to reclaim my range with better tone and even less effort on the same horn over a few years.

I have also found, through long-term experimentation, that opening the throat of a mouthpiece can bring about a better balance to the overall setup of the instrument, but it takes a willingness to learn the adjustments and an open mind that is willing to judge the results accurately in the context of the ensemble where one plays most. Blanket statements and generalities have their place, but can hinder the individual who doesn't fit the mold.

In the end, I believe the characteristics of the Bach 37, which Conn-Selmer has made the dominant Bb trumpet for so many years, have dictated much of the philosophy and understanding passed on by the majority of trumpet players, teachers and even directors. That being said, I have found that a narrow, "Bach 37 mindset" is also pretty limiting and that there exists outside of that experience a broader reality that is worth exploring. In my opinion, restricting a player's development to the 37 conformity might bring about a measure of uniformity, but that very uniformity can ultimately squelch the individual and his or her skill and creativity.

By the way, I am still a developing player. I have found that the ultra-large throat Wild Thing to be the easiest trumpet I've ever played, over the long term. It has helped me progress in virtually every aspect of my trumpet playing, including intonation, range, articulation, sectional balance, tonal blending, dynamic control, individual expression, and... Shall I go on?
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Centennialsound
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
tptguy wrote:
It's understandably comforting to a player to hear a wider sound around their ears. It appears bigger to the player. But a spread sound also encourages a comparable spread in the chops which is a huge reason so many players never develop an upper register, especially one that's in tune. Also, it greatly encourages overblowing in an attempt regain power and core out front. Players in the section with 'normal' trumpets blow ever harder to hear themselves while the spread trumpet becomes more and more unbalanced. An especially good sound man with individual mics on each horn can help greatly. But for best chop development as well as greatly improved ensemble performance it's essential to avoid oversized bells, flares, and bores, as well as enlarged mouthpiece cups, throats and backbores. Anything/everything (including teachers) that encourages a spread in the sound adds to negative habits that are very difficult and extremely time consuming to turn around.


I don't mean to come off as testy, but some of the conclusions you state are different than my personal experience. First off, I am referring to the years I spent playing a Benge 5X in High School and college. Many times I have read here on TH that the #5 Benge bell is in the same class as the #72 Bach, but it is really more like the #37 (yes, I studied them to find out), so it isn't a so called "large throat bell" like the Wild Thing or 72. To this day, that horn produced the strongest all-encompassing sound of any trumpet I have ever played or heard. It had a very dense core and the sound carried, quite literally, through walls. I can confidently say this, because I put that horn in the hands of several different players of various skill levels and in various venues and the result was always the same: a huge, penetrating, all-encompassing sound.

This meant that I learned to play efficiently with less effort than the players beside me, who often were playing the venerated Bach 37. I played in tune, because I had developed and ear for intonation through my years of singing in choir. I learned to listen to the ensemble as a whole, while also being able to dissect the individual players/singers and sections from the whole. So, I think the projection pattern of a bell and what a player does with it is not exactly determined by the size of the bell taper or flare.

In college, I gained performance range up to F an octave above the staff playing a Bach 1-1/2C mouthpiece (a convention I followed) , which was admittedly too large a rim for me. Later, when I started my comeback after 30 years, I learned to play on a #3 then #5 rim and with a "compression" embouchure, as is illustrated by Poper in his hand book and advocated by Pops McLaughlin in his online works. This allowed me to reclaim my range with better tone and even less effort on the same horn over a few years.

I have also found, through long-term experimentation, that opening the throat of a mouthpiece can bring about a better balance to the overall setup of the instrument, but it takes a willingness to learn the adjustments and an open mind that is willing to judge the results accurately in the context of the ensemble where one plays most. Blanket statements and generalities have their place, but can hinder the individual who doesn't fit the mold.

In the end, I believe the characteristics of the Bach 37, which Conn-Selmer has made the dominant Bb trumpet for so many years, have dictated much of the philosophy and understanding passed on by the majority of trumpet players, teachers and even directors. That being said, I have found that a narrow, "Bach 37 mindset" is also pretty limiting and that there exists outside of that experience a broader reality that is worth exploring. In my opinion, restricting a player's development to the 37 conformity might bring about a measure of uniformity, but that very uniformity can ultimately squelch the individual and his or her skill and creativity.

By the way, I am still a developing player. I have found that the ultra-large throat Wild Thing to be the easiest trumpet I've ever played, over the long term. It has helped me progress in virtually every aspect of my trumpet playing, including intonation, range, articulation, sectional balance, tonal blending, dynamic control, individual expression, and... Shall I go on?


You can go on if you want haha
Good thoughts. I've been playing trumpet for 4-5 years, But Have played piano for about 11. I have a range about to an f# above the staff on my cornet, and about an E above the staff on my teacher's strad.. just if any of you were wondering about where I'm at range wise
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Centennialsound,
The above quote you cited was written because I detected a vein in you, like my own, that just doesn't want to "go along with the crowd." You seem to be willing to explore and learn in a broader context, even if that involves different challenges most people never encounter. A whole bunch of people will steer you to go with the flow, middle of the road. I feel it important to communicate that that approach isn't the only way, nor always the best way. There are those of us who, for whatever reason, cannot remain creative while following the masses. We are not followers by nature.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a current WT owner/player, I'll say that I have found that the statements about it on Flip's website are accurate. And in my case at least it was not because I was expecting the horn to aid endurance and be open in the upper register even at the end of a four hour gig, in fact, the .470 number made me skeptical that I would be able to handle it. It works for me, and as has been said here before, I do NOT claim it is a "be all and end all" horn.

Would a Bach 37 or Yamaha Xeno work well for the OP? I suspect it would, and would be a good choice for a developing (as well as for a very highly skilled) player, especially since those two horns are very good for all around (as well as for more specialized) use. But those are not the only two horns that he necessarily should consider.

Brad
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, the same bell that "defines" a Wild Thing. If it doesn't have that bell, it's not a "Wild Thing"

All the mystique and importance of that magic bell that defines the horn and makes it so special, and worthy of long winded articles, and testimonies, and defines that horn, and compares to no other!!

And.....it's the same bell as what's in the marching band trumpet Kanstul makes.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
Interesting, the same bell that "defines" a Wild Thing. If it doesn't have that bell, it's not a "Wild Thing"

All the mystique and importance of that magic bell that defines the horn and makes it so special, and worthy of long winded articles, and testimonies, and defines that horn, and compares to no other!!

And.....it's the same bell as what's in the marching band trumpet Kanstul makes.


There is so much more to it than just the bell, but it starts with that. Like I said, a practiced eye can see many of the things that make the WT unique. Almost all of them, in fact.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
trumpet.sanity wrote:
Interesting, the same bell that "defines" a Wild Thing. If it doesn't have that bell, it's not a "Wild Thing"

All the mystique and importance of that magic bell that defines the horn and makes it so special, and worthy of long winded articles, and testimonies, and defines that horn, and compares to no other!!

And.....it's the same bell as what's in the marching band trumpet Kanstul makes.


There is so much more to it than just the bell, but it starts with that. Like I said, a practiced eye can see many of the things that make the WT unique. Almost all of them, in fact.


Oh, well it was stated here that the bell is what makes a Flip Oakes designed trumpet a Wild Thing, and with out that bell, it's not a Wild Thing.

Now it's been established that Kanstul's marching band trumpet uses the same bell.

Then more ambiguity about other parts of the horn that makes it unique. I guess my eye isn't as trained as yours, but perhaps you can go into more detail about what defines the Wild Thing's uniqueness
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